Cabin Heat and C02

[canav8]

I thought I would revive this thread. Just recieved the SAIB regarding the CO detectors. FAA is recommending to install a commercial unit in light aircraft. Since I am not part of the originality club, I thought I would solicit anybodys experience as to a model available. I probably can fit a 2 1/4 instrument into the panel. Any recommendations as to good one? Price is not the concern at this point. I will mention this though. As the previous story mentions that the exhaust needed to be on the richer side to get the signs, I know that if you aggressivly lean your engine, you will minimize the CO mixture. More complete burn.

[GAHorn]

The FAA thinks we are ...S T O O P I D. Here's a copy of CE-10-19 which FAA sent out today.

CO Detectors ce-10-19[1].pdf

If you read it you will find you've spent time downloading and reading TWO PAGES of what everyone already knows.... that Carbon Monoxide (CO) can leak into the cabin from your cabin heater system due to defective mufflers, and that they recommend you buy a CO-Detector and inspect your mufflers at each inspection.

(There! I've saved you ten minutes of download and reading only to find out that ..... they will also recommend ONE of TWO CO-Detectors that are commercially available that are suitable for aircraft.)

Which TWO detectors are recommended? W E L L.... that's a SECRET!

You have to contact the U.S. Dept of Commerce, National Technical Information Services, (NTIS) and obtain from them their "Document No. DOT/FAA/AR-09/49, dated October 2009” . After you've made that call, and spent 15 minutes listening to bad music puctuated by touch-key menus...... you will get "Mary"..... who will take all your information and then tell you that " Document No. DOT/FAA/AR-09/49, dated October 2009” .... has been RE-NUMBERED.... and is now Document
"PB-20-10103465" and is entitled "Commercially Available CO Detectors" .

BUT WAIT! There's more!

The document is available in PAPER form.... or digitized CD form..... and they will happily send it out to you, expect it in 7-10 days... and it only costs $60 (SIXTY DOLLARS). (That's for paper. For you cheap-skate taxpayers who've already paid for this document to be produced ....you can get the CD for a mere $40 (FORTY DOLLARS).

Or you can simply read Avweb's article, and smile, knowing your 170 Association Membeship just paid for itself. (Go buy any electrochemical CO-Detector that triggers at/above 35 PPM and you'll be fine.)

Addendum: Here's AvWeb's Mike Busch's article on CO Detectors:
http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/186016-1.html

[canav8]

Dam Cynic, lol
Okay George,you saved me. I guess I will just buy you 200 dollars in beer instead since I like to throw money away.
Doug

[170C]

OK George, since you have your farmer's hat on and are separating the wheat from the chaff for us, are you saying that we would be just as well off if we purchased one of those household unis like we have hanging on our bedroom wall and sit it somewhere in the cabin of our planes rather than spending a load of $$ for a panel mounted APPROVED unit? Thanks for your input on this subject.

[GAHorn]

OK George, since you have your farmer's hat on and are separating the wheat from the chaff for us, are you saying that we would be just as well off if we purchased one of those household unis like we have hanging on our bedroom wall and sit it somewhere in the cabin of our planes rather than spending a load of $$ for a panel mounted APPROVED unit? Thanks for your input on this subject.

I didn't say that.

But a household unit is better than no unit.

[n3833v]

We talked about this unit in another thread , not too long ago.

John

[n2582d]

Cessna had a Service Kit for the C-185 to pressurize the tailcone. I've added it to the MX Library.

[bagarre]

On the advice of the AvWeb article, I bought a Kidde Nighthawk 900-0089 CO detector and velcro'd it between the front seats, behind the fuel selector.
CO disburses incredibly evenly in air so, industry opinion is, the location of the detector in an airplane cabin is not related to the detector's accuracy. That doesn't make much sense until you read about how CO interacts with the air and your lungs. (Your body will accept CO much easier than it accepts O2 and takes a long time to flush out of your system)

With mine on the floor, I used to rarely trigger 10ppm while taxiing or extended climbs.
I trimmed my exhaust stacks last annual (they used to look like Snaggle Tooth) to about 2" protruding. Now, I trigger 20ppm on take-off and climbs. Still WAY below limits but I like to see it trigger like that. It's now part of my check list to know the CO detector is working properly.

[n2582d]

In light of Jon's remarks on checking your mufflers and the dangers of CO I thought it would be good to give this old thread a bump. I thought Jr.CubBuilder's personal experience well worth reviewing -- scary. The issue of what monitor to use is also addressed in this thread. In the AvWeb article Mike Busch recommended CO Experts Model 2002. This is no longer available. Their latest one is the Model 2016. Most CO Monitor designed for the home won't trigger an alarm until too high a threshold, usually after a significant time delay. I did a quick search on Grainger to see what was available in low cost hand-held devices. Here's what I found. Most of these allow one to set the point the alarm sounds. If you decide one of these is right for you buy it someplace other than Grainger if you're concerned about the price. For example, the T40 Rattler p/n 18105254 is available at Ben Meadows for $151.41. The Industrial Scientific Gas Badge Pro p/n 18100060-1, refurbished from the factory, is available here for $150. FedEx uses the handheld Drager CO2 monitor in its aircraft. (That's not a misprint Blueldr--they're concerned about CO2 because they often carry a lot of dry ice.) The Drager Pac 3500 and 5500 CO monitors, along with many others, are available from Aircraft Spruce. This one looked pretty slick as it can be tied into a warning light on the panel and a warning audibly heard through the headsets. But the warning alert level is set too high and it is not FAA-approved for installation in certified aircraft. (That really gets my goat -- it seems to me that the installation of any potential life-saving device like this should be considered a minor alteration; the FAA should encourage their installation like they have with AOA indicators and shoulder harnesses.) It's likely some of you in the oil/gas industry have used a CO monitor at work. I would appreciate any recommendations y'all might have.

[gfeher]

I have the "Model 300 Pocket CO" detector sold through Aircraft Spruce in my 170B. So I thought I would give you a product review. Here's a link to it: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/p ... ckkey=6595 (Links to pdf copies of the manual and spec sheet for the unit are under the tabs on the Spruce page.) Here's a link to the manufacturer of the unit, who is located in California: http://www.kwjengineering.com/

This is a long post, so I apologize in advance. But I thought others may be interested in the information.

When I bought my plane a little over a year ago, it had a card/spot CO detector that was so old and faded as to be useless. So I decided to replace it with something more substantial. After researching the options, I settled on the Model 300 for a few reasons. It was an actual detector rather than a passive card. It was portable and relatively inexpensive (compared to other industry portable detectors, and especially compared to panel-mounted aircraft units). And it had an extended useful life with a user-replaceable battery. (Many of the other and more expensive portable CO detectors are "one and done" units. The battery cannot be replaced and the entire detector must be discarded/replaced in 2 years.)

As seen in the picture on the Spruce web page, the Model 300 is small (OK tiny) and rather cheesy in appearance. It's 2 3/4"H x 1 1/2"W x 5/8"T, the size of a key fob, and is designed as a "personal" detector " to be "carried on key ring, clipped to a worker's shirt pocket, or attached to the dashboard of a vehicle or piece of equipment." It has a single oval button in the middle, a small LCD display (with backlight), a buzzer and a red LED alarm light. It's simple to operate -- just press the button and it will perform a brief self test (including battery check), show the current CO reading and go into "12 hour mode." I like the 12 hour mode, because the unit automatically shuts off after 12 hours if you forget to manually turn it off. (If you push the button twice, it goes into "continuous" mode and does not automatically shut off. Also, it does not record or report dosimetry information in continuous mode.)

In addition to giving a low battery and other warnings, the display shows any current CO exposure in PPM (range: 5 to 500 PPM in increments of 1 PPM). The display is updated every 5 seconds. The unit instantaneously alarms (82 dB buzzer at 24", red LED light, backlight and vibrator) at or above 50 PPM, 125 PPM and 400 PPM. In other words, if it detects exposure at those levels, even for an instant, the alarm goes off. The "pulses" of the alarm are different at each level. (The 50 PPM alarm is optional and may be shut off). Additionally, and I think just as important, the unit alarms if it detects the equivalent of 25 PPM exposure over an 8 hour period using a time-weighted average. In other words, if the detector calculates that your total level of exposure so far meets or exceeds the equivalent of an exposure of 25 PPM over 8 hrs. (even if your present exposure has been less than 8 hours), it sets off the alarm. (I think I explained that right). How it calculates this is explained in the manual. So according to the manual if the detector "has been on for less than 8 hours, it will also issue an hourly warning if your current TWA {time weighted average] puts you on track for exceeding this limit in 8 hours." (This is a pretty low threshold in my plane given that I cannot fly it anywhere near 8 hours. Also, since the standards for CO exposure are usually expressed in exposure levels over time (e.g., X PPM over X hours), I understand that this additional threshold alarm more realistically tracks exposure risk. But believe me, I'm no expert.)

As alluded to above, in the 12 hour mode, the unit keeps track of dosimetry information, which includes your total-exposure and time-weighted average exposure.

The unit uses a standard CR2450 coin battery, a feature I really like. It can easily be replaced by the user. (According to the Q&A tab on the Spruce web page, the manufacturer offers a $79 service which includes replacing the sensor if needed, calibration, one year additional warranty, and battery replacement.)

One downside, however, is the temperature range of the unit. It cannot be used below 32 deg. F, a potential problem for those of you in Alaska and other really cold areas unless you can keep the cabin above freezing. Another downside is that when you hang it from the keychain loop on the unit, it hangs upside down. Not a big problem for me, but just so you know.

This is just a rough summary of some of the features. Other features and details are described in the manual and tech sheet identified above.

All in all, even though the unit doesn't seem like much at first glance, I'm satisfied with it. It has a lot of features for a tiny unit. And its far better than a spot card. While it's not exactly cheap, its not nearly as expensive as other detectors with similar functionality. I have it hanging off my pilot-side door entry hand strap in my peripheral vision so I can see the red LED if it alarms. (An advantage of its size is that you can hang it pretty much anywhere.) It seems to work well, though I must admit that most times when I'm flying I have the ventilator at least partly open. I'm not necessarily endorsing it --just trying to accurately highlight its features.

I hope this helps.

[n2582d]

I'll second that. Thanks for the pirep!

[gfeher]

No problem. I've gotten so much good info from this forum that I'm glad to contribute if I have some potentially useful info.

I'm curious to see how long/well my little CO detector holds up. I guess I shouldn't be critical of its size. A former colleague of mine had a client that made data loggers used for sharks. The things didn't look like much - about 1" X 1/2". But they were inserted inside sharks and recorded all kinds of biometric info on the shark and uploaded it to a satellite every time the shark surfaced. They worked like a charm and lasted for years despite the fact that the inside of a shark is considered a pretty harsh environment.

[bagarre]

I think the most important thing is to read out the PPM vs some green, yellow, red (black) indication.
And also know what the PPM levels are.
Having a really low PPM alert - I think mine first makes a noise at 15 or 20 is useful to me. it triggers each flight and lets me know it's still working.
The day I climb out and don't hear it chirping at me, I know it might not be reading right anymore.

These things have a life limit. The battery change happens each annual.

[gfeher]

Right. Also, it helps to know the baseline levels/quirks of your plane so you can tell when the levels are different indicating a leak. I think I'll move mine from the hand strap. It's not doing much when I have ventilator air blowing by it. Perhaps I'll put it on the panel with Velcro as Arash suggests.

[blueldr]

As a matter of curiousity, shouldn't we have been talking about "CO" rather than "CO2"