Flying with the doors off

[4-Shipp]

George, my friend, you don't read so well at 6:30 am before your first cup o' joe . I specifically stated that I "paraphrased" the letter. I did not take the time late last night to re-type the letter verbatim. I was only attempting to share the main points of the documentation but was too lazy to retype the entire document or scan it. It is more specific in many of the points, to include the exact verbiage required for the placard.

You are correct on one point, the letter is not type-specific. It is a form letter with blanks to be filled in for Make, Model and Registration Number as well as a blank to "Show specific operations: e.g. intentional parachute jumping, aerial photography, etc." As for its legitimacy in 2008, I haven't a clue, nor did I offer my opinion of such. I just shared what I have in my logs.

I'm off on a trip but will try to scan and post the entire document when I return

[HA]

George, that type of vague letter is pretty much what we got for operating limitations from any of our friendly FSDO's (or back in the day, GADO) up until about 4-5 yrs ago whenever we certified an airplane in Restricted category. lately they've gotten a little bit more specific which is good, but those old letters are perfectly valid and what's nice about them is you can fit a lot in between the lines. as you pointed out, maybe that's not the intent but unless they issued it with an expiration date then it's up to "common sense".

I have a similar letter (limitations for when my 172 is fitted for crop-spaying with a Sorensen setup) that would curl your hair it obviously assumes that anyone reading it already knows what it is talking about. not that I would ever want to spray crops with that fine machine again, unless the skeeters get really bad this summer

I used to let people fall out of my airplane years ago too (I made sure they had chutes first), we flew with the pax door off and the only thing I did different (besides not wear shorts, brr) was wrap some duct tape around my ratty seat so their rigging wouldn't catch on the seat parts. it didn't fly any differently.

[Jr.CubBuilder]

"all occupants must wear chutes when conducting intentional parachute jumping ops." - This is exactly contrary to parachuting operations.

Umm, not to be obtuse, but how is that contrary to parachuting operations?

[GAHorn]

HI, Bruce!
Yes, I saw it was paraphrased (and yes it was way before coffee)

My thought in making that post was that unless superceded, the letter is controlling. I'd hate to have those restrictions placed on my airplane in all door-removed ops. Of course, I have no plans to operate with a door off either.
But the one time I did so, (in my 206) we simply pulled the cargo doors off and flew the mission and reinstalled them. I didn't apply for a letter and didn't have the req'd spoiler either. I felt truly rebellious!
(We attempted to distribute hybrid grass seed all over a mountain in west TX. We used 4" pvc pipe laid into the "v" at the strut/fuselage joint, and strapped the 20' long pvc to the right gear leg, and tied the aft end to the tail tie down ring. We had a 2" 45-degree angle-joint with 2" clear tubing installed at the cargo door area. The intent was to use the clear tubing to "vacuum" the seed from open bags of grass seed. We anticipated that the air rushing thru the long 4" pvc would create a suction sufficient to suck up the seeds and carry them along to the tail where they'd be distributed.
I have no idea how efficient it was because the non-aviation person handling the vacuum became airsick in only 3 or 4 passes over the mountain peak (a mesa actually), so we cut it short and landed. He distributed the rest of the seed onto his ranch out of a pickup truck, but at least the mountain top got a good load. It must have worked because the next spring all that mesa top broke out in high-dollar Aggie-hybrid grass.
So did my carpet. And sidewalls. And headliner zippers. It looked like an inside-out Chia-Pet.)

Jr.cubbuilder, I'm not especially experienced in jumping ops, but I've never known anyone participating in parachute jumping to ever wear a seatbelt. Usually, there's no seats. (Except the pilot, of course.)

[Jr.CubBuilder]

HI, Bruce!

Jr.cubbuilder, I'm not especially experienced in jumping ops, but I've never known anyone participating in parachute jumping to ever wear a seatbelt. Usually, there's no seats. (Except the pilot, of course.)

Ah I see your point and you are right, but you said "chutes" not seat-belts.

[GAHorn]

Ah I see your point and you are right, but you said "chutes" not seat-belts.

Pre-coffee.... remember?

[Joe Moilanen]

I've got over 100 jumps out of a ragwing 170. 4 jumpers plus pilot on every jump, didn't matter how big everyone was. No wonder I bought one. Just landed an hour ago after spending a couple of hours flying flight line grids at midnight. Right under the approach to Seatac and Boeing Field no less. 1800' with heavies crossing directly overhead at 2500' one right after the other. I'm ready for a beer.

Joe

[Jr.CubBuilder]

Right under the approach to Seatac and Boeing Field no less. 1800' with heavies crossing directly overhead at 2500' one right after the other. I'm ready for a beer.

Joe

Do you ever worry about wake turbulence?

[amacbean]

Joe,

We've met at the convention in San Antonio? Ithink, anyway. Do you ever fly with the door off now? I'd like to know how people are currently doing it, legality-wise. It would be for videography, not jumping.

Allen

[voorheesh]

Flying jumpers is just one reason for flying with doors off and it usually involves other modifications to the aircraft such as installation of an exterior step to cast off from, removal of seats, interiors, and copilot flight controls, etc.. All jumpers wear seatbelts even if they sit on the floor. I have seen "gang seatbelts" that secure as many as 3 jumpers. Think about it. If a jump plane comes to a sudden stop before the occupants are ready to jump, they need to be restrained. Some jump pilots of small single engine planes wear parachutes although I do not think it is required. The reason is that a jumper could inadvertantly hit a flight control surface and cause control failure. All modifications to jump planes are accomplished by 337 field approvals or STCs. If a jump plane finds itself in restricted category, it may have operating limitations such as the ones listed earlier. These operating limitations would only apply for operations covered under the restricted use. Many such aircraft can revert back to standard category when not involved in restricted ops and then the operating limitations do not apply. If anyone is really interested in this subject or wants to jump out of a perfectly good airplane, try looking up the U.S. Parachuting Assoc. Otherwise, if you need to operate your single engine Cessna without doors, consult your AI or Cessna to find out how to do it because I suspect it is a pretty simple procedure.

[Joe Moilanen]

Right under the approach to Seatac and Boeing Field no less. 1800' with heavies crossing directly overhead at 2500' one right after the other. I'm ready for a beer.

Joe

Do you ever worry about wake turbulence?

Definetely do. It's kind of like being in a canoe in a lake full of water skiers without being able to see the water. You have to visualize where it's going to be. If a heavy goes over your next intended flight path you just have to circle and wait it out.

[Joe Moilanen]

Joe,

We've met at the convention in San Antonio? Ithink, anyway. Do you ever fly with the door off now? I'd like to know how people are currently doing it, legality-wise. It would be for videography, not jumping.

Allen

Hi Allen!

I do remember meeting you. I haven't flown my plane with the door off, yet. I've been thinking of doing videography myself with the gyro-stabilized gimbal mounts that I made. I believe that it's approved though. I shoot my oblique photos with the window all the way open and verticals through a camera port. Actually the camera port kit that I installed was originally in George Horn's 170. Thanks George! It sure is a money maker!

Joe

[hilltop170]

Just landed an hour ago after spending a couple of hours flying flight line grids at midnight.

Joe-
I just have to ask, what are flight line grids and why at midnight?

Thanks-

[Joe Moilanen]

Just landed an hour ago after spending a couple of hours flying flight line grids at midnight.

Joe-
I just have to ask, what are flight line grids and why at midnight?

Thanks-

I have a camera port in my plane so that I can vertical images, and I fly predetermined flight lines so that all of the images taken have enough overlap to be stitched together into one image. It was infrared thermal imaging, and has to be done at night to get accurate info. Solar reflections during daytime hours give false readings.

Joe

[hilltop170]

Thanks Joe