The International Cessna^® 170 Association

canav8 wrote: Hi Bruce. I have a question for you. I looked through the Continental engine IPC the other day because the topic of discussion with my IA was about dampened and undampened cranks. We talked about holes and no holes.

If you are referring to the 1/4" hole on the prop flange as an indicator of an undampened crank - that is incorrect. There are many C145 cranks around WITH the quarter inch hole AND dampers. The only way to tell for sure is to remove one of rear cylinders and look inside.

Hi Karl, no I am not referring to the hole. That is not a true indication of an undampened crank according to the IPC. Please look at the pictures Johneb has posted. The comparison is looking at the crankshaft part numbers on all C-145,C-145H, C-145-2, O-300A,B,C,D motors. If you look near the front of the Continental engine IPC, there is a chart that shows an on list with codes. These codes show which crank part number applies to which engine. All of the part numbers indicate a crank that is dampened by part number. I hope this helps.

George if you want to move this to the crankshaft thread I would be much happier. I do not know how to do it. V/R Doug

johneeb wrote:Bruce,
Is there a corrected manual or a revision notice? The date on my manual is November 1969.

IPC's are revised from time to time. My copy is dated Nov. 1981.

As the IPC is revised, superceded parts are frequently dropped. That is why my Nov 1981 IPC does not list ANY ...UN-dampered crankshafts...because they are superceded and no longer used.

Azpilot wrote:What about these: http://www.21stcentury-usa.com/aveo/aveoflash/

WAAY to expensive for my tastes. The Whelen units are comparably priced to regular incandescent units. The aftermarket LED lamps I've experimented with are priced in the $15-range.

canav8 wrote:...George if you want to move this to the crankshaft thread I would be much happier. I do not know how to do it. V/R Doug

This discussion is in relationship to using a 35 A gen on dampered cranks relative to electrical deman/draw etc. and LED/s. There is already a discussion thread about dampered/undampered cranks which virtually copies the pertinent points in this divergence and therefore there is no need to make duplicates by moving/splitting this one. Thanks.

George,
Wouldn't installing the original flasher unit for the nav lights reduce your current draw? It would help in your quest to pacify the originality judges In Duluth--especially in contrast to those bright LED nav lights!

George,
How in the world do you expect me to get a decent nights sleep worrying about you operating out there among all those other airlpanes while you have a set of bootleged LEDs in your nav lights. You're some kind of cruel.

n2582d wrote:George,
Wouldn't installing the original flasher unit for the nav lights reduce your current draw? It would help in your quest to pacify the originality judges In Duluth--especially in contrast to those bright LED nav lights!

Good luck finding a serviceable, original flasher. Some of the original mfr'd units had service bulletin/AD against them for overheating and possible fire. The Narco units (FL-1) that the IPC depicts worked with a resistance-circuit which had an electrical draw which equalled the lamps, so while it opened the circuit for the lamps, it was also drawing current.

There are electronic/solid-state flashers which are used in modern automobiles that would do as you suggest, but there is no approval for their installation.

I"ve borrowed a light meter and discovered the LEDs put out sufficient light to meet the rule, but the wingtip LED's have significant color-shift towards amber and blue unless red and green emitting LED's are used in those positions. (It so happens that red/green are less expensive, anyway.)

Meanwhile, I've completely converted my interior lights to LED, which is legal.

Here's a link to the LED (9-led) replacement for the GE-67. You will want the "single circuit" 1156-base unit.

http://www.ledlight.com/9-led-light.aspx



My instrument lighting system is original, and uses the Grimes "torpedo" light fixtures. They have red lenses and are controlled by a rheostat beneath the panel. There is also a pilot's "map" light on the left/fwd doorpost that has a red lens, contolled by a slide-switch on the doorpost. (see page 116 of the B-model IPC)
I had previously added a second map-light and switch to the co-pilot's side fwd doorpost, removing the red lens, so that there'd be a white, reading/map light in that position. Additionally, I'd previously added two more lights/switches on the rear doorposts for pax reading lights. These all used GE-67 lamps per the IPC, and that made a total of six lamps, drawing approximately 3.5 Amps.

I converted them all to LED lights, keeping the original instrument lights red LED, and the others all white. This makes a total amperage-draw of .66 for all of them and, even with all six ON... is undetectable on the ammeter, having saved about 3A. (In fact, the ammeter used to deflect about two needle-widths (approx 8A) with Nav and Interior lights ON, and now with all ON.... the needle makes no detectable movement at all.)


The problem I ran into was that the Grimes "torpedo" fixtures utilize the GE-67 bulb's side-illumination capability....yet the #67 replacement-LED's only provide forward-firing capability.
In my fooling-around I came to realize that I had plenty of ordinary plastic plumbing parts left-over from when we remodeled the house, and that a common 1/2" butt-splice is a perfect-fit when the bakelite "torpedo" is snapped off the Grimes fixture. Now the fixture can be rotated upon it's ball-and-socket to aim directly at the object or inst. panel. I painted them flat-black. (In reality, I did find a bit of interference internally between the LED and the "rib" which is inside the butt-splice (intended to accomodate the ends of the plumbing-pipe when it's glued), so I removed the rib with a 3/4" drill in my drill-press. It could also be done with a Dremel roto-tool, die-grinder/sander or similar tool.) I also discovered that inst-pnl lights (shield) needed to be shielded internally black...or the glare can be distracting. So I painted the shields (butt-splices) such that their interior surfaces would also be black. The pax reading lights I kept white interiors for greater illumination. (I used a length of ordinary 1/2" pipe stuck into the end while I spray-painted the splice.)

I discovered that LED's are infinitely controllable by the rheostat and yet they offer MUCH more light and MUCH wider angle-of-departure (broader panel illumination) than the original Grimes. (Bill Gotcher...if you are reading this....THIS is the solution for that lighting problem you called about last week!) Bottom line: MORE LIGHT for almost NO electrical draw. A "AA" penlight battery could power the entire airplane except for landing/taxi lights. (That's a BRAG, that bluEldr will appreciate!)

One final note: The overhead inst-pnl Grimes fixtures had to be mounted upon angles in order to reposition them so as to directly aim at the instrument panel. You can see how I did that in the photo that shows the backside of that overhead panel.

Here's a few pics:

George,
In view of the modifications you've been making, such as baggage door, lighting, etc., over the last year or so, I think it only fair to the other members that you delete your obviously elite references to originality in the bottom of your comment boxes. It really is time for you to cease lording it over the other members who perhaps bought their airplanes, unknowingly, in considerably less than original configuration. I think you ought to stop trying to make them feel bad.

I know you are joking ...I maintain my slogan: "An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons." ... and leave it to the reader to contemplate whether my airplane is mostly original, ....whether I'm mostly original, .... or mostly a "nut" ....or mostly just "right".

(Key word ... that "mostly".)

Just wondering George,
What did your control surface balance turn out to be on your rudder nav lite mod.?

Indopilot wrote:Just wondering George,
What did your control surface balance turn out to be on your rudder nav lite mod.?

No change.

One more comment about the LEDs that bear repetition: Another distinct advantage of the LED lights is that they generate virtually NO HEAT. They barely become warm. Anyone who's accidentally grabbed one of those original lamp fixtures after it's been on a few minutes and blistered their hand will appreciate that!

George the Harley guys say that colored LEDs under the same color lens make the brightest light. Have you tried the red and green lights under the same colored Grimes lens?

Also buy your comment that the lights have enough light to meet the regulations and then showing a picture of your tail light, have you decided they would be legal to use in flight and not just to look pretty in your hanger.

Of course the in flight part wouldn't apply to Ole Gar and he wouldn't have to charge his battery as often with the LEDs.

N9149A wrote:George the Harley guys say that colored LEDs under the same color lens make the brightest light. Have you tried the red and green lights under the same colored Grimes lens?

Also buy your comment that the lights have enough light to meet the regulations and then showing a picture of your tail light, have you decided they would be legal to use in flight and not just to look pretty in your hanger.

Of course the in flight part wouldn't apply to Ole Gar and he wouldn't have to charge his battery as often with the LEDs.

Yes, I've edited my first msg post in this thread to add my discovery of your Harley-guy's observation. It seems that when a white light is filtered thru a colored lens...what actually occurs is a reduction of light due to the lens filtering/blocking out all the light spectrum except red....or green...etc., depending upon the lens color. So a red light, shining thru a red lens, will actually pass-thru more of the light than a white light thru a red lens. The website I listed earler (ledlight.com) sells red and green examples of 1156 bulbs also, and anyone wishing to delve into this would likely benefit by studying that site. The only reservation I have about this matter is to determine that brilliance and color adhere to the official requirements. (The FAA long ago recognized that suitable substitutes are appropriate in some matters such as switches, circuit-limiters, and lamps. A Tung-Sol or Wagner 4509 you purchase from Tractor Supply is just as airworthy as the genuine GE 4509. I think automotive LED substitutes are arguably appropriate, but technically not approved**, despite their advantages. The Whelen LED units are approved, so any argument would be about lumens and color, not technology.) **<EDIT>: AC 23-27 now provides basis-of-approval for the use of automotive lamps in aircraft built prior to Jan 1971, so the use of the LED lamps mentioned in this article are no longer a problem.)
I also found that reflective-tape applied to the interior, aft-hemispherical side of the colored lenses and trimed with an exacto (the area normally blocked by the cover anyway and which is mirrored-finished in the genuine Grimes/Whelen nav-lamps) would further boost the output of the red/green lamps. Since heat is not a factor with LEDs (and BOY! do those original nav lamps make HEAT!) the tape's durability is not affected.

The advantages of LEDs are really impressive in so many ways. To answer the question you are
truly asking: I am declaring this to be beneficial, ...tho' not officially blessed. If one were to insist upon an approved
LED Nav-light system, one will have to use one of the Whelen or Aero systems. The interior light mods
are completely legitimate, however.
The nav-LED solution has about the same legitimacy as MMO and not as much as boat-trailer wheel bearing grease.

Why are you saying the interior LEDs are OK yet outside is a gray area. Is it because there are standards for the outside marker lights but none for the interior?

BTW I've been testing LEDs behind my instrument overlay to light 5 instruments for about 7 years now. They work as well for those 5 instruments as the 2 that are lit with very old grimes incandesent systems at 1/10 of the amperage for all 5.