The International Cessna^® 170 Association

ptporebski wrote:George & Bruce,

Been out of town for a while and just getting back. Thank you for the replies. I should have emphasized that I have a 1959 model C-172. That way there would not have been any confusion that it is a model 172 and not an A,B,C... model. The serial number is 46026. I read both of your emails and think that what you are saying is that the old owners manual I have printed is legal. Correct?

no...I didn't say that. I have no idea what you printed....nor about the legality of ANY Owners Manual replacing an AFM.
Later FARs Provided for a POH...Pilot Operating Handbook...not OM....which can serve, if approved.

As George said, we don't know exactly what you have in hand. I can not say for absolutely sure for your '59 because I'm not familiar with the '59 and what exactly Cessna did then. I'm familiar with the 170 models made till '56 and with our models Cessna produced an Owners Manual and this Owners Manual is not approved by the CAA/FAA. In the case of the 170 the required AFM is a single sheet two sided document and at the bottom with be a signature block from a CAA official and their signature approving it.

I'm guessing what you have says Owners Manual on the cover and that is why your calling it a Owners Manual. I'm taking an educated guess and saying this is not the approved AFM you are looking for just like our 170 Owners Manual is not the approved AFM. Of course it is possible that by '59 Cessna included the required approved AFM in the Owners Manual but this of course does not required until the approved POH in 1979.

I'll bet what your looking for is also only a single sheet of paper printed both sides.

There should be no doubt if you've found the right document. It will have your aircraft's registration number on it. It will probably say, right on it, "This document must be kept in airplane at all times." It will say "C.A.A. Approved" or "FAA Approved" or such. It will say "Approved" at the bottom of the page, with a date and the signatures of a couple of federal officials. If you don't see these things, you don't have the legally required document. This could be a single sheet of paper, as with 170s a few years older than your 172, or it might be a page included as part of a flight manual that was delivered with the aircraft when new.

The modern-day POH format was established by GAMA Specification 1 in 1975. Earlier aircraft had AFMs in what ever format the manufacturer felt was appropriate.

Here's a reference that may be helpful: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/avia ... r%2008.pdf. Read the first few paragraphs especially.

[The internet is amazing! I never knew some of this until a few minutes ago. Googling is a genuine skill that I hope is taught in all our schools, either by the teachers to the students, or vice-versa!]

moderator note: Here is the referenced document:

I thought maybe this was a good thread to ask this question. I've got 53 170b with an AFM document as discussed here. I'm also involved in a 58 172 that I do not have any paperwork for. It has an owners manual, unspecific to the tail/serial number. My question is did the 58 era 172 have the same type of AFM single page document as the 170b? Do any of you 172 guys have an example you can scan and post. I know what it looks like for the 170, but I've never seen one for the older 172's. We are going to use the airplane for a check ride soon and we need to dot all the i's. One last question, if we need to get one specific to our airplane, does anybody know how to accomplish that?

Thanks

John, thanks for the link, I knew at some point the AFMs were replaced by the GAMA AFM/POH but I had no idea when it happened. I have the AFM for the C-170 and C-180 but when I had a 1973 C-185, I could not obtain an AFM from anywhere, not the local Cessna dealer, or directly from Cessna. They kept telling me 185s did not have an AFM which I did not accept but never found resolution to the problem. The 185 was exported to Canada when it had 12 hours, ferry time only from Wichita, and all US documents were discarded at that time. I later sold the 185 and didn't think about it anymore until your post, thanks.

N3092A wrote:I thought maybe this was a good thread to ask this question. I've got 53 170b with an AFM document as discussed here. I'm also involved in a 58 172 that I do not have any paperwork for. It has an owners manual, unspecific to the tail/serial number. My question is did the 58 era 172 have the same type of AFM single page document as the 170b? Do any of you 172 guys have an example you can scan and post. I know what it looks like for the 170, but I've never seen one for the older 172's. We are going to use the airplane for a check ride soon and we need to dot all the i's. One last question, if we need to get one specific to our airplane, does anybody know how to accomplish that?

Thanks

There was a period of time in which FAA did not require AFMs for each aircraft provided that limiations and operating procedures were otherwise contained in placards, listings, and instrument markings. Many of the earlier, simple aircraft were included. By 1979 that practice stopped.

The Type Certificate Data Sheet of any production aircraft may be found at http://www.faa.gov
( http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... enFrameSet )

The TCDS will always state the "required equipment" to be aboard the aricraft. In the case of TC 3A12 for the 172 series, none of the "early" 172s, thru serial 17271034 req'd an AFM. The POH AFM for the 172's subsequent to the 1979 models beginning with SN: 17271035 and ON require the POH AFM as specified in that TCDS.

Richard, the same applies to your 185. Beginning in 1979 (in the middle of the F-models at SN 18503684 and on) POH AFMs were req'd equipment. Previous 185's did not have them, nor did earlier F-models (except for one F-model prototype.)

As a reminder to all: OWNERS MANUALS are NOT approved documents. They were produced by the marketing department. While they may contain much information similar to approved documents, they are NOT req'd.
AIRPLANE FLIGHT MANUALS and PILOT OPERATING HANDBOOKS ....ARE documents that are usually "approved" by the certifying authorities (FAA). They are usually required to be aboard the aircraft when it is being operated.
Everyone should obtain and read their aircraft's TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET in order to be fully informed as to required equipment and operating limitaions and required placards and instrument markings. These are specified by serial number and are listed in the TCDS.
In addition, each aircraft MUST have ON BOARD it's Weight and Balance information, which should include a current Equipment List.
Also, the Aircraft REGISTRATION and AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE should both be aboard.
If the aircraft is operated internationally or has specified radio equipment (such as HF transmitter) it should also have a RADIO STATION license issued by FCC (which expires, typically every 5 years.) The operator/pilot should have a FCC RADIOTELEPHONE OPERATOR PERMIT which has no expiration.
If operating in some countries such as Canada, proof of Liability Insurance is also required.

gahorn wrote:................There was a period of time in which FAA did not require AFMs for each aircraft provided that limiations and operating procedures were otherwise contained in placards, listings, and instrument markings. Many of the earlier, simple aircraft were included. By 1979 that practice stopped.......

Richard, the same applies to your 185. Beginning in 1979 (in the middle of the F-models at SN 18503684 and on) POH AFMs were req'd equipment. Previous 185's did not have them, nor did earlier F-models (except for one F-model prototype.)..........

If operating in some countries such as Canada, proof of Liability Insurance is also required.

George-
Thank you very much for that explanation, we all appreciate your willingness to research these things when most of us won't make the effort ourselves.

The years-long mystery of the AFM for my 185 is finally solved! It was a first year F-Model S/N 18502167 and many things about it were strange that year. So what Cessna was telling me was true, there was no AFM as such but they also didn't explain why there was no AFM, which would have been nice to know. It's interesting how these threads work their way around in different directions from the initial intent.

Of all of the trips I have flown back and forth across Canada in the last 30 years, I have yet to be asked for an aircraft radio station license, radiotelephone operator permit, or proof of insurance.

Thanks George. I just figured that since the 170 came with an AFM the same would be true for the early 172. I appreciate your follow-up.

I take it, Richard, that you have never been "ramp checked" in Canada?
The only time I've ever encountered this was in Quebec. (Figures, Heh?)

No I haven't, but I do have all that stuff which has been a waste of effort, time, and money. Typical screwed-up government mandates and if you think it's bad now just wait, we ain't seen nuthin' yet!

hilltop170 wrote:No I haven't, but I do have all that stuff which has been a waste of effort, time, and money. Typical screwed-up government mandates and if you think it's bad now just wait, we ain't seen nuthin' yet!

Ok, calm down, friend... It's the law of the land...and you complied with the law...but you're complaining that no bureaucrat has stopped you to check your papers?
(You were just born too-late! You'd have loved the Gestapo.)

I guess we're just lucky that the Wright brothers came along before the FAA or they'd still be fooling around down there on that windy beach.

They were too busy telling Mr Langley how to do it.

gahorn wrote: (You were just born too-late! You'd have loved the Gestapo.)

I think we'll get a chance to see it (the Gestapo) again.

gahorn wrote:Ok, calm down, friend... It's the law of the land...:

Yep, that's the same thing Europeans were being told in the 1930s.

...........wait!..........OK, I've taken my drugs and I feel much better now...........