0-300B STC available?

[SteveF]

The association does have a O-300B STC and it is $75 for members.
My 52B had a 0300B installed in 1959 that came out of an early 172.
The logbook says 0300B was installed in 59 and when the association got
the STC sometime in the last two years I sent for and got one. A
log entry by my AI that he found an 0300B installed and referencing
the STC and I think there was also a 337 to make it legal but not sure as
I have sold the ship and gone Sport Pilot. I am fairly sure we have the
A, B, C, and D STC's in the association.

[bagarre]

Installation of the Teledyne Continental O-300-C,D, or E model engines and McCauley 1C-172EM or Sensenich M74DC propeller in accordance with ....

Does not mention the B model and don't get us started on the spinner

0-300-B is similar to 0-300-A except incorporates crankcase and crankshaft provisions for use of a hydraulically controllable propeller from the engine oil pressure.

Seems like a simple field approval since the C-145-2H is approved for the plane and has the same setup.

Also, FYI

C145 series engines equipped with dampered crankshafts are identified by suffix letter "D" following the engine serial number which denotes one each 5th and 6th order dampers. 0-300 series engines are also equipped with crankshaft incorporating one each 5th and 6th order dampers.

The suffix letter D only applies to C145 engine serial numbers. All O-300 engines have the dampers.

[GAHorn]

Continental has a bulletin that allows you to change from one model to another and you just re stamp the data plate with a "C" then the Letter of the new model number. I can research it and find the exact bulletin but it is a legal way to do this and just a log entry.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! That is NOT authorization to install any particular engine into
a certificated airframe.
That is only how to convert one engine model to another model of the same series. If that exact engine model it's not otherwise approved, you may not simply
mark the dataplate, and that suddenly provide approval for installation.
In this case, the conversion would also require engine component changes to
remove the hydraulic provisions, including the front bearings and crankshaft.

[marathonrunner]

George ...Did you read the bulletin? I have done this on engines converting them from say an IO 520 D to an F and also vice verse. Yes there are changes you have to incorporate and buying the STC is the least expensive way to go. When you convert from one model to another you can then install that model into an aircraft that has that model listed on their TCDS.

So "ABOSLUTELY NOT" is simply not the actual fact or truth.

[GAHorn]

(Note: I edited this post for clarity 12/20/12)
What I read from your comment was the implication that one can (using the SB) convert one engine to another...and that action alone makes it a legal installation. As if to say that if an unapproved engines is installed, that by restamping the engine dataplate to another (approved) model engine, that restamping would make the installation legal.
That is not correct.

The model to which it is being converted...must be approved for the installation. The conversion does not automatically do that. If an IO520D is found in a C206 (which requires an IO520A), then stamping the D-engine's dataplate to declare it to be an A-engine.... is NOT what the TCM SB is addressing, nor does that make the D-engine (now restamped D-C-A but wihout the necessary maintenance actions and parts changes necessary to physically change the engine) suddenly legal in the 206.

The TCM SB addressing engine conversions from one model to another, provides guidance in converting one engine model to a different engine model. The approval to install any particular engine model into any particular airframe must be found elsewhere, and the steps necessary to convert that engine may be complex.....not just a simple re-stamping of a dataplate.

In the case of the O300B... restriking the dataplate is not all that's req'd to convert the engine. The steps to do that are extraordinarily expensive, considering the desired result. (To restamp that dataplate from B to a Type Certificate-approved engine for the 170 would require a teardown, bearing and crankshaft replacement, and possibly even a crankcase replacement. However, the TIC170A STC only costs $75, which makes the installation legal.)
Perhaps I read more into your comment than you intended...but that is one interpretation that was possible and I wanted to clarify that.

[mike roe]

Am I going crazy or did I not purchase the STC for installing, in the 170, the 0300B from the association. If not I have the paperwork I referenced earlier with the STC # I can sell copies of. I thought it was legit.

[KG]

http://cessna170.org/forums/viewtopic.p ... ot+#p48810

this what ya'll are looking for?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

OK.

I do try to keep all this information in memory and regurgitate it correctly when required. I also have nearly every document available to me while at work so I can double check when I'm not absolutely sure. I'm sorry I did not immediately have the required STC documents. I've rectified that situation.

Thanks Dave and KG for offering info.

I've now reread our STC paperwork. I was correct, we have two STCs. One is the original Ron developed which allows the installation of 0-300C, D and E engines as well as appropriate propellers and spinners on any model of 170 and a few 172s.

Our other STC was developed at my request by Ron and it allows the installation of 0-300B engines on any 170 model.

When I have my next brain fart on this subject, I'm counting on a few of you to point me to this thread.

[gar450]

So i can go ahead and install a B engine with that STC. There would be no advantage now that the association has that STC to finding a 170 that ever came with it from the factory.
I have found 2 B engines, just wanted to make sure before i went to look at them and spent the money.
Thanks guys for the explanation and help

[GAHorn]

Am I going crazy or did I not purchase the STC for installing, in the 170, the 0300B from the association. If not I have the paperwork I referenced earlier with the STC # I can sell copies of. I thought it was legit.

Mike, it is not legit to sell "copies" of the TIC170A STC. In other words, the copies would not be legit.

I"m pretty sure you know this, but your statement implies you have purchased the STC legitimately....and now that you own a copy, that you might sell it, or additional copies of it to others. That is not correct.

An STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) incorporates intellectual property which belongs to the owner who is approved/identified by FAA as the owner of that property.
The STC-Owner may authorize others to modify their airplanes in accordance with the STC. He may charge for that authorization. The STC-Owner provides that other person/Aircraft-Owner a copy of the STC-certificate which FAA issued the STC-Owner, so that other person/AO can show his airplane was properly modified.

Despite the common parlance often used, .....that activity does NOT mean the purchaser actually "owns" the STC also......it merely means the other purchaser was authorized by the STC-Owner to use the intellectual property (which remains the intellectual property of the STC-Owner.)

In simple terms, just because I have a copy of the paperwork, does not mean I can make photocopies of that paperwork and provide/sell/give them to someone else to enable them to modify their airplane similarly. The someone-else must also purchase the authority directly from the STC-Owner to legitimately modify his aircraft via that STC.

In recent times, STC-Owners (with FAA approval/guidance) specify by serial number the aircraft to which their authority is legally given. This is a one-time authorization to modify one aircraft. The TIC170A engine STC also should specify on it's front page the serial number of the aircraft to which it applies....and no other. (Even if someone "alters" their paperwork, a record is kept by the STC-Owner of the particular aircraft to which their STC is offered. Counterfeit paperwork is still counterfeit, and any aircraft operating with false papers is so-burdened.)

I suspect your question was with regard to a different activity. I suspect you meant only that ...if you bought the TIC170A STC, and susequently did not alter your aircraft in accordance with that STC's authority for that aircraft serial number..... then you can offer your previous authority (TIC170A STC) to someone else (presumeably to recover your $75.)
The best way to do that is to contact the STC-Owner and ask them. In most cases the STC-Owner will authorize that, and will record the serial number of the new purchaser. (The best method is to have new paperwork issued with the recipient-aircraft serial number recoreded upon the document. Most STC-Owners do this complimentary, or for a small charge for their trouble only.)

Of course, if you bought the STC and installed the B-engine per that STC, then you have the right to sell that modified aircraft and it's paperwork including the applicable STC documentation.

It's a whole new discussion if one can buy/sell/re-sell STCs which have been previously issued. Generally, it's best to stay away from them unless the original holder approves it in writing. That would best be discussed in a new thread.

[bagarre]

Are there any modern constant speed propellers out there that would work with an O-300-B in a C170?
Maybe something that doesn't have wood blades and could actually out perform a C172EM propeller?

[mike roe]

George
I was joking. I stated early in this thread the STC was available and even gave the STC # and everyone still questioned if the Assoc had it. The 2nd post was a jab at everyone not paying attention to my first post.
Merry Christmas (can I say that)

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

So i can go ahead and install a B engine with that STC. There would be no advantage now that the association has that STC to finding a 170 that ever came with it from the factory.
I have found 2 B engines, just wanted to make sure before i went to look at them and spent the money.
Thanks guys for the explanation and help

As far as an advantage buying an 170B with the factory installed 0-300B there in none and never was. In fact the opposite. From a standpoint of legality in today's black and white world, even if Cessna installed the engine, it would not be legal because it is not on the TCDS. With the purchase of our STC, there is no question the installation by anyone including the factory is legal.

So the bottom line. If you buy any model of 170 which has a 0-300B and you find it's installation being called into question because of the lack of proper paperwork in today's world, buy our STC and the issue goes away.

The curiosity as to whether Cessna ever installed a 0-300B is just that, a curiosity. But having concrete evidence that they did do this would go a long way to showing that a major aircraft company believed that a C-145 and the 0-300 were the same engine. This argument comes up from time to time. You see even though we all know for all practical purposes they are the same engine that fact is not in black and white using todays lawyer definitions of the words used to describe them.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Mike, I'm sorry, I did not take your post as confirmation of the content of our STC. I knew it was covered but that little devil sitting on my shoulder, told me to be sure before I confirmed it. Thanks

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Are there any modern constant speed propellers out there that would work with an O-300-B in a C170?
Maybe something that doesn't have wood blades and could actually out perform a C172EM propeller?

The prop control on the C-145-2H/0-300B was not a variable affair, but an all or nothing control. Hence the 2 position McCauley which only has two settings, high and low. It also worked with the Aeromatic prop because in that prop it was an override of the weighted prop control system. The override was either on or it wasn't.

I'm no prop expert but I think I would have heard of another prop, if there was one, by now that would work.