The International Cessna^® 170 Association

if it bounces youre landing too fast.
the horton kit exacerbates the problem.... it should allow you to slow down more
and remain comfortable at slow speeds.
practice slow flights down the entire runway length again and again, until you can smoothly
fly it on to the pavement. when the main wheels touch push the stick forward.

Thanks George,

I like this BA146 landing at I think, it's been awhile, London City airport, hard landing, oleo compression and airborne again!. The aircraft was damaged, London is a 5.5 degree approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb_41ydR ... re=related

gahorn wrote:smoothly fly it on to the pavement. when the main wheels touch push the stick forward.

That would be a wheel landing tho (stick forward is to reduce the AA)

The concern here is bouncing a three point landing. For that, the stick comes back in order to flare into the three point position before landing. Think of it as gradually bringing the stick back more and more to keep the plane just barely off the runway. If all goes right, you'll run out of stick about when you run out of flying speed just as your wheels touch. But, if a gust of wind hits you right at that point, you will fly again until you can slow down more.

This is one reason I like wheel landings more. You have more control over all and it's easier to manage a little extra airspeed or gusty conditions....as long as you don't let the tail drop.

Regarding the video, yes I guess you can BOUNCE a plane if you round out too late and slam it into the ground at flying speed. Not sure how much of that is you gear or how much is simply ground affect and extra speed after the ground slamming which causes the plane to fly again. A FlyBaby will do the same thing and has a rigid gear. Maybe it's the runway that's flexing and springing the airplane back into the air

N3548C wrote:I got my tailwheel endorsement in a Citabria and am fairly comfortable in it but am now struggling with 3-point landings in the 170B with a Horton STOL kit. Way too many arrivals. I am going to get some more dual but would be interested in any thoughts.

Going back to the original question: Your experience is typical with the Horton STOL mod, until you get the hang of it. It lands very differently from the stock wing. As I said earlier, what helped me the most is to land as slowly as possible with full flaps, because the wing still wants to fly at very low speeds, even in the 3-point attitude.

Wheel landings with the Horton mod also work best if you're slow, with full flaps. You'll find it takes quite a bit of power to maintain the proper nose-low attitude at slow speeds against the drag of 40-degree flaps, but you'll get a very clean landing out of it and be stopped in 200-300 feet of runway.

Practice slow flight at altitude until you're comfortable flying at Horton landing speeds. You won't be getting any help from the ASI, as it will be reading zero before the wing stalls. One guy told me it flies "scary slow," and that's a pretty good description.

Poncho73 wrote:

bagarre wrote:

jrenwick wrote: With the Horton STOL kit, my experience is that a 170 can be rolling out after a good 3-point landing, and a little gust of wind will put it in the air again.

That's still not a bounce

You can bounce any aircraft on any landing. We have bounced landing (hard landing) procedures on the CRJ and similiar aircraft. The spring steel gear on the 120 thru 195 series is a rebound gear, (big spring) by nature it will bounce. Practice makes perfect and everyone of us has bounced a 170 during landing and will continue to do so. If you have never bounced your 170 on landing you Sir must be Chuck Yeager.

I appreciate the feedback; there there are some consistent threads running through here. I have lined up a CFI with beaucoup tailwheel time and we are going to go out and fly the thing around and see where that gets us.

As mentioned here the Horton means you have an entirely different machine. A bit of patience is required and subtle inputs make all the difference and don't worry the ability will come quickly.

What is the new stall speed with the STOL kit?
I didn't realize the kit so radically changed the characteristics of the airplane. (Maybe I want to add it to better my short field performance)

bagarre wrote:What is the new stall speed with the STOL kit?
I didn't realize the kit so radically changed the characteristics of the airplane. (Maybe I want to add it to better my short field performance)

Your mileage may vary. No speeds are given with the STC; it just says performance will be as good or better than stock. On my Horton-equipped '55 B model, power off, the stall warning sounded at 51mph clean, with Vs1 = 45mph indicated. With full flaps the warning was at about 38mph indicated, and when it stalled, the ASI was reading zero. I suspect that would have been something around 35-40mph CAS, but I didn't think to check it against the GPS. Maybe someone else with the Horton 170 can chime in; I've sold mine.

Hey!! Isnt a good landing is when all the wreckage goes in the same direction. Plus I close my eyes and wait for the bang. {just joking]

jrenwick wrote:

bagarre wrote:What is the new stall speed with the STOL kit?
I didn't realize the kit so radically changed the characteristics of the airplane. (Maybe I want to add it to better my short field performance)

Your mileage may vary. No speeds are given with the STC; it just says performance will be as good or better than stock. On my Horton-equipped '55 B model, power off, the stall warning sounded at 51mph clean, with Vs1 = 45mph indicated. With full flaps the warning was at about 38mph indicated, and when it stalled, the ASI was reading zero. I suspect that would have been something around 35-40mph CAS, but I didn't think to check it against the GPS. Maybe someone else with the Horton 170 can chime in; I've sold mine.

The STC would not address stall speeds. It's likely the stall speed didn't reduce significantly but your AOA stall did which would effect your indicated speed. The only way to accurately measure the airspeed in all scenarios is using a pitot boom, moveable throughout the entire flight regime. The horton kit definately helps the low speed handling regardless. My 48 at full power stall, full flap - indicates 0 mph and it is a stock 170. If I can dig out a picture of one of our flight test booms I will post it.

Found it, Pitot boom, likely a little large to install on our 170's but interesting none the less.........

OK, I will through in another view point . One thing that I noticed (and am fighting somewhat) is that since my eye prescription changed (bi-focals) my depth perception while landing has changed and I fine myself higher that I think I am. When the wing stalls in a 3 point attitude, I find that I sometimes "drop" it onto the runway and I bounce a foot or so up again before it settles down.

Paul

Paul-WI wrote:OK, I will through in another view point . One thing that I noticed (and am fighting somewhat) is that since my eye prescription changed (bi-focals) my depth perception while landing has changed and I fine myself higher that I think I am. When the wing stalls in a 3 point attitude, I find that I sometimes "drop" it onto the runway and I bounce a foot or so up again before it settles down.

Paul

I'll ask my dad...................

Ouch!!!

gahorn wrote:if it bounces youre landing too fast.
the horton kit exacerbates the problem.... it should allow you to slow down more
and remain comfortable at slow speeds.
practice slow flights down the entire runway length again and again, until you can smoothly
fly it on to the pavement. when the main wheels touch push the stick forward.

I spoke with one 170B instructor and flew with another last weekend, and this is just what we found. I was flying it like a regular Skyhawk wing and needed to get it slowed up a little more. Not the greasers I was getting in the Citabria, but OK for sure. Thanks again to all who posted on this issue.

Something that helped me a lot was trimming the nose up aggressively on final. It requires decent yoke pressure on a go-around, but it's doable. I felt that I was holding the elevator full aft but wasn't quite there. Helped me a lot.