Rear Seat Removal

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Just to beat a dead horse.

Remember there are two parts to airworthiness, the aircraft must be in compliance with its type certificate or its properly altered condition, and be in a condition for safe operation.

The TCDS says this for a 48. The A and B are similar in that it does not call for a rear seat. Of course it doesn't call for a pilots seat either.:

• Required Equipment In addition to the pertinent required basic equipment specified in CAR 3, the following items of equipment must be installed:
  • Landplane: Items 1(a), 103, 104, 201(a), 202(a), 204(a), 402(a).
    Skiplane: Items 1(a), 103, 104, 204(a), 208(a), 402(a), and (e) or (d).
    Note: For night flying, cabin dome light and instrument lights or equivalent, to provide illumination of all placards and instruments are required in addition to equipment required by CAR 43.

I wonder it CAR 3 calls for a rear seat?

[bagarre]

The TCDS says this for a 48. The A and B are similar in that it does not call for a rear seat. Of course it doesn't call for a pilots seat either.:

Probably because when CAR 3 was written, people still had some shred of common sense about them.
...Something that our country is in desperate short supply of today.
We now live in a world where, if it's not explicitly allowed, it must be explicitly denied.

Is removing the back seat (and changing my W&B by some 30 odd pounds) such a terrible thing? Really?

Maybe next we can argue the legality of LED nav lights...oh wait.

[T. C. Downey]

Let's not confuse alternate equipment with parts of the aircraft that were a portion of the type design.

You can remove and substitute alternate equipment with only a log book entry by any A&P. because the type certificate is approved data to change authorized equipment.


you can not remove any portion of the aircraft that was required by the production certificate. Like seats, instruments, doors, and windows.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

you can not remove any portion of the aircraft that was required by the production certificate. Like seats, instruments, doors, and windows.

Actually, as I'm sure you are aware, you can remove seats, instruments, doors and windows from some aircraft.

In reviewing TCDS A-799 it says

• Required Equipment: In addition to the pertinent required basic equipment specified in CAR 3, the following items of equipment must be installed....

So I'm being lazy and not look this up myself and my question one again is this. Does CAR 3 specify a rear seat as required basic equipment? Does it say anything about seats at all?

[170C]

Another option (probably not recommended, but utilized by many aircraft owners) is to carry W&B data in your plane for all 4 seats w/ vrs weight's of passengers and empty plus with the rear seat out (with & without a passenger) plus with both the rear seat and co-pilot seat removed. In the event of a ramp check the odds are they aren't going to question what seats are in or out, but with the W&B paperwork they "might not" check for a 337. Other than the official requirements to have the rear seat (and co-pilot seat) installed I don't know how it is going to effect safety of flight as long as one pays attention to W&B

[T. C. Downey]

you can not remove any portion of the aircraft that was required by the production certificate. Like seats, instruments, doors, and windows.

Actually, as I'm sure you are aware, you can remove seats, instruments, doors and windows from some aircraft.

Yes you can, it is called 'properly altered condition" and requires proper paper work.

In reviewing TCDS A-799 it says

• Required Equipment: In addition to the pertinent required basic equipment specified in CAR 3, the following items of equipment must be installed....

So I'm being lazy and not look this up myself and my question one again is this. Does CAR 3 specify a rear seat as required basic equipment? Does it say anything about seats at all?

CAR 3 is no different in this respect than FAR 23, The Type certificate and the production certificate make up the design of the aircraft. changing the design requires approval from the FAA in one form or the other (STC or Field approval)

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

So can I fly without a headliner? How about carpet?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I'm not saying this to be smart. I'm really trying to understand where the line is. I've looked at the TCDS more than once and it does cover a lot of equipment and it does say that some of the equipment is required. But it does not cover all equipment. So when is something installed become part of the design of the production certificate what ever that is.

I think an argument might be made that this aircraft was certified as a 4 place aircraft under the normal category and therefor it would need seats for 4, at least when carrying 4 people. Makes sense. But what if it is operated as a 2 place aircraft in the utility category which it is also certified?

[T. C. Downey]

The rule of thumb again, can you remove it with out tools?

Does your carpet set have a part number? If it does it is probably on the production certificate.

You can remove the ash trays, that is a minor IAW the SEA FSDO. but you must place a no smoking placard in the aircraft.

I left mine in, but converted them to mike and audio jack holders.

[T. C. Downey]

I think an argument might be made that this aircraft was certified as a 4 place aircraft under the normal category and therefor it would need seats for 4, at least when carrying 4 people. Makes sense. But what if it is operated as a 2 place aircraft in the utility category which it is also certified?

All the data that is required to operate in the utility cat. is already in place. 1900 max empty weight and nothing loaded aft of the front seats. ( but the rear seat remains)

[bagarre]

You can remove the ash trays, that is a minor IAW the SEA FSDO. but you must place a no smoking placard in the aircraft.
I left mine in, but converted them to mike and audio jack holders.

Interesting. What was your basis of approval for modifying the ashtrays from from their intended use?
And did that approval require the No Smoking placard now that the items were modified and not usable as originally designed as ash trays?
Or are you violating the TCDS by having inoperative ashtrays without the required No Smoking placard?

[bagarre]

Also,

The rule of thumb again, can you remove it with out tools?

Where exactly is that in CAR3? I can't seem to find the thumb rule section.

FWIW, the front seats CAN be remove without tools so, that's OK? Just fly from the back seat?

[GAHorn]

This "question-response/question-response" discussion resembles the discussions which occur at the Supreme Court when lawyers present arguments before the Justices.

It's all good discussion....that has no "charges" against others who reply. THIS is what a discussion-forum is all about.

The removal of pilot seats is OK for preventive mx....but they are required for pilots who operate the aircraft. If one is removed because it's not to be occupied...I believe it also must be documented ...or approved by some other basis...for example flying with the door removed for parachuting flights.

The BEST answer is to have a form 337 completed for any configuration desired. (I still don't believe it needs FAA approval in Block 3, tho'. The need for the 337 is due to the Wt/Bal change and pax capacity change....not for flight characteristics or any other safety of flight.)

[blueldr]

More mole hills being made into mountains again. Almost every flight camping up in Idaho has seats removed from the airplane. Some even have it covered with paperwork. I've NEVER heard of the Fuzz getting huffy over it yet.

[cfzxo]

In my case they would only be half huffy as I only have one half of my rear seat installed,darn if I only can remember where I put the other half. It is one of the best bootlegged mods I have ever done. the ease of removal is great, because the old bench seat sits in the hanger permently where it belongs. I have yet to figure out how to get it approved before I ever fly into the lower 48. other than weight and balance am I missing something here?? 45 years and yet to ever be ramp checked.
Bill CFZXO 180hp 55170B