Nobody is encouraging operating our airplanes contrary to
the flight manual. This subject has been argued at length
on "external" newsgroups, and usually, it wastes more time
than anything else, so I'll just drop it.
Some parting thoughts:
If full flap slips were that dangerous, they would be prohibited,
and (probably) mechanically prevented from occurring.
If the 170 was that dangerous (during full flap slips), it would never
have been certificated, or it would certainly have a nasty AD on it
requiring something be done to the aircraft to prevent the flight
condition from occuring.
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
Entering the 170 market
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Bela, there are lots of airplanes flying without prohibitions to certain manuevers. An example that leaps to mind are the Grumman-Americans that are known to a strong propensity to snap-roll when turning base to final in a left crosswind. There are so many of those that were cross-controlled into a snap at low altitude and ended up killing their occupants that virtually every major training airport in the country has at least one incident the local recall and retell over it. I personally knew of the problem and personally watched it occur at Hobby airport in the mid -70's when a commercial pilot checking out for insurance prior to renting it for a joy ride, killed himself and the rental-company's well-experienced CFI (who taught primary students in the model, yet could not prevent the accident.)
It became a famous lawsuit nationwide when the commercial pilot's widow won against the CFI, Gumman-American, and the flight school.
That airplane model never lost it's type certificate or it's airworthiness certificate, and there was never a modification or AD note against it for that problem. They are still flying today (although fewer and fewer as time goes on.)
Anyway, it's a mistaken view to believe the FAA or anyone else guarantees your safety just because a type design reaches production and is sold in large numbers yet is not heavily placarded or AD-noted to cover every possible manner in which it can hurt you.
Also, not every attempt to produce a particular reaction in an airplane (even by experienced test pilots) is successful. There are numerous times that I've flown aircraft to re-produce a reported problem yet was unable to do so. It doesn't mean the problem doesn't really exist and it doesn't mean folks should disregard the warning. (The Sino-Swearengen test pilot Jan Beeler would confirm this, except he was recently killed in the accident plane as he was attempting to prove/disprove the reported problem.)
I don't mean to seem contentious with your opinion on this matter. I appreciate the fact that you and Bruce have learned to notice the blanked-out elevator feedback that occurs just before it get's "unhappy". I also noticed that you did this "at altitude" and Bruce did it while on "high" approach. I further noticed that you both quit the manuever or otherwise corrected when you felt that "unhappiness". But I don't think it's adviseable to discount this well-known problem with slipping the B model and certain other fowler-flap equipped high-winged Cessnas, and I feel strongly that it's not smart to experiment with this close to the ground. I also doubt that many of the crosswind landings you've attempted at 70 mph were performed with full flaps. (And the 55 mph reported was likely not at 300 AGL but more likely after the airplane was already in ground effect where the airflow over the tail is dramatically altered.) Even more likely, I suspect you simply forgot that you used a lesser flap setting in strong crosswinds just like the rest of us do.
In any case, it's better to follow the warning on the flap handle and avoid slips with full flaps lest it be the one time you thought it would give you warning ... and it didn't.
It became a famous lawsuit nationwide when the commercial pilot's widow won against the CFI, Gumman-American, and the flight school.
That airplane model never lost it's type certificate or it's airworthiness certificate, and there was never a modification or AD note against it for that problem. They are still flying today (although fewer and fewer as time goes on.)
Anyway, it's a mistaken view to believe the FAA or anyone else guarantees your safety just because a type design reaches production and is sold in large numbers yet is not heavily placarded or AD-noted to cover every possible manner in which it can hurt you.
Also, not every attempt to produce a particular reaction in an airplane (even by experienced test pilots) is successful. There are numerous times that I've flown aircraft to re-produce a reported problem yet was unable to do so. It doesn't mean the problem doesn't really exist and it doesn't mean folks should disregard the warning. (The Sino-Swearengen test pilot Jan Beeler would confirm this, except he was recently killed in the accident plane as he was attempting to prove/disprove the reported problem.)
I don't mean to seem contentious with your opinion on this matter. I appreciate the fact that you and Bruce have learned to notice the blanked-out elevator feedback that occurs just before it get's "unhappy". I also noticed that you did this "at altitude" and Bruce did it while on "high" approach. I further noticed that you both quit the manuever or otherwise corrected when you felt that "unhappiness". But I don't think it's adviseable to discount this well-known problem with slipping the B model and certain other fowler-flap equipped high-winged Cessnas, and I feel strongly that it's not smart to experiment with this close to the ground. I also doubt that many of the crosswind landings you've attempted at 70 mph were performed with full flaps. (And the 55 mph reported was likely not at 300 AGL but more likely after the airplane was already in ground effect where the airflow over the tail is dramatically altered.) Even more likely, I suspect you simply forgot that you used a lesser flap setting in strong crosswinds just like the rest of us do.
In any case, it's better to follow the warning on the flap handle and avoid slips with full flaps lest it be the one time you thought it would give you warning ... and it didn't.
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
You B-model guys who feel the need to slip--shame on you! If you can't salvage an high approach ( or do a steep approach) using 40 degrees of flap, IMHO you're doing something wrong.
My ragwing has itty-bitty flaps,and I do slip it when required,but I found another technique works as well or probably better than slipping--it's just not as much fun.
I use 65 as a reference speed for landing-a bit more for wheel landings &/or gusty/crosswindy conditions,and a bit less for short-field 3 pointers. But generally I shoot for 65 on final. I discovered that if I'm high,I can pull the nose up to between 55 & 60 and the descent rate really increases. I stall at around 47 indicated with full flaps/power off at my average weight (2 people & mostly full of gas),so if I don't get below 55 I'm still at about 1.2 x VSO--plenty safe if I pay attention to the airplane. Because the controls do get a bit mushy below 60 mph,and also because stall speed goes up in a bank,I don't do the 55 mph approach if I have to do any maneuvering (like a dog-leg final).
One thing to keep in mind using a low-speed/high-sink-rate approach,there ain't much energy left when ya flare. Alot of times the airplane rotates to a 3 point attitude but the descent rate doesn't change,the airplane just slams down in a carrier landing. When ya get close to the runway on one of these slow approaches,you have to either add some power to arrest the sink or push the nose down coming over the fence to gain some airspeed to flare with.
It can be hard to use this technique because it feels weird--too high on long final so pull the nose up,sinking too fast on short final so push the nose down! It's counter-intuitive. But it works pretty well once you get used to doing it.
Eric
My ragwing has itty-bitty flaps,and I do slip it when required,but I found another technique works as well or probably better than slipping--it's just not as much fun.
I use 65 as a reference speed for landing-a bit more for wheel landings &/or gusty/crosswindy conditions,and a bit less for short-field 3 pointers. But generally I shoot for 65 on final. I discovered that if I'm high,I can pull the nose up to between 55 & 60 and the descent rate really increases. I stall at around 47 indicated with full flaps/power off at my average weight (2 people & mostly full of gas),so if I don't get below 55 I'm still at about 1.2 x VSO--plenty safe if I pay attention to the airplane. Because the controls do get a bit mushy below 60 mph,and also because stall speed goes up in a bank,I don't do the 55 mph approach if I have to do any maneuvering (like a dog-leg final).
One thing to keep in mind using a low-speed/high-sink-rate approach,there ain't much energy left when ya flare. Alot of times the airplane rotates to a 3 point attitude but the descent rate doesn't change,the airplane just slams down in a carrier landing. When ya get close to the runway on one of these slow approaches,you have to either add some power to arrest the sink or push the nose down coming over the fence to gain some airspeed to flare with.
It can be hard to use this technique because it feels weird--too high on long final so pull the nose up,sinking too fast on short final so push the nose down! It's counter-intuitive. But it works pretty well once you get used to doing it.
Eric
Nobody said anyone "feels the need" to slip, and it might
sound like bragging (sorry) but I can put the airplane down
where ever I want to without slipping, with flaps or without.
My only point was/is the sky doesn't fall if you choose to
do so. (I know, I know... I said I'd drop it....).
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
sound like bragging (sorry) but I can put the airplane down
where ever I want to without slipping, with flaps or without.
My only point was/is the sky doesn't fall if you choose to
do so. (I know, I know... I said I'd drop it....).
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
But it's just so easy to Slip - Eric? 
And you can view the tops of the Cottonwood trees easier as you slide down the other side. I too, turn final at 50 - Full Flaps, and slow her down from there on routine strips, landing in 300 ft.. That's just the performance of a B!
But there are times, when you'd better slip that bird down right now with your eyes glued to the crk bed ruts and not be playing around at slow speeds in the glacier wind or whatever. Straigten her up, pull in the other 20 deg flaps, set her down at 40, dumping flaps. Go arounds are non existent. You wouldn't believe how many ways one can get into a puckering, got to fall out now, situation. Feeling more than just the need to slip!
I view slips as a controlled fall, in which I'm dropping my B to the neccessary elevation immediately, with little distance traveled. Even when teetering on stall with full flaps, you are still flying.
OK, mouth shut, having flash backs!
747 patterns, 5000 ft runways, in the DAYLIGHT, from here on -
NOT!
IMHO of course
And you can view the tops of the Cottonwood trees easier as you slide down the other side. I too, turn final at 50 - Full Flaps, and slow her down from there on routine strips, landing in 300 ft.. That's just the performance of a B!But there are times, when you'd better slip that bird down right now with your eyes glued to the crk bed ruts and not be playing around at slow speeds in the glacier wind or whatever. Straigten her up, pull in the other 20 deg flaps, set her down at 40, dumping flaps. Go arounds are non existent. You wouldn't believe how many ways one can get into a puckering, got to fall out now, situation. Feeling more than just the need to slip!
I view slips as a controlled fall, in which I'm dropping my B to the neccessary elevation immediately, with little distance traveled. Even when teetering on stall with full flaps, you are still flying.
OK, mouth shut, having flash backs!
747 patterns, 5000 ft runways, in the DAYLIGHT, from here on -
NOT!
IMHO of course
Dang it! Eric! Now you've gone and given away my secret!
I've won more spot landing contests exactly as you just described! (I've got the trophies to prove it.)
You're right, at first it looks like it increases the problem but...have faith...and it'll come down like an elevator.! Just as I feel I've got the spot made I unload the elevator, lower the nose, let the speed regain to that desired and fly it normally on to the touchdown. (The contests I entered required power off on downwind, ...no power added back in,...full-stall...no wheelies allowed.)
I've won more spot landing contests exactly as you just described! (I've got the trophies to prove it.)
You're right, at first it looks like it increases the problem but...have faith...and it'll come down like an elevator.! Just as I feel I've got the spot made I unload the elevator, lower the nose, let the speed regain to that desired and fly it normally on to the touchdown. (The contests I entered required power off on downwind, ...no power added back in,...full-stall...no wheelies allowed.)
gahorn wrote:Biggest undetected lie.AR Dave wrote:What do the contest at the 170 fly-ins consist of?
Spot Landings, Short takeoffs, Drops, ?
BINGO?
Alright George, fess up! Those trophies for BINGO, Lieing, Dominoes, or staying in the same spot the longest? And if you were in a flying contest, was it like the originality contest were there are two winners no matter what. Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
Nope. They are real spot-landing trophies I genuinely won (to the chagrin of the flying-school owner who paid for them after she'd bragged that HER clients/students were taught HER method which she was confident was the best method ever invented. She'd expressed her views very publicly all around the airport where we both taught, particlularly criticising my teaching methods. (We were competitors at that airport for students, although she was a large flight-school, well-financed with her wealthy husband's money and I was a young free-lance instructor trying to get students by running ads in the newspaper.)
I had won a trophy at her flight-school's sponsored fly-in the previous year beating her most experienced CFI, which provoked the second contest a year later at a fly-in she'd hosted specially for the event. In that second contest she was most-determined that her own clients/students should win a trophy so she increased her chances by offering 3 trophies in 3 pilot qualification categories: Student/Private/Commercial or Higher pilot categories.
A chalk/lime-line was laid across the grass runway about one-third down the runway at the chosen fly-in site, and (for Private pilots or higher) the power was to be pulled completely off on downwind and no power allowed to be added without disqualification. (One could land beyond the chalk line but not short of it.) Students did not have to pull the power all the way off on downwind. Throughout their approach they could reduce but never add power without disqualification and could use flaps all they wished. Private pilots could use slips. Commercial or better could do neither. My newest primary-student who'd only soloed x-country the previous week won the Student category trophy, ...my Private-rated commercial applicant student (whom I'd also taught for his Private ticket) won the Private category and Yours-Truly won the Commercial or Higher trophy.
To my knowlege she never offered trophies at any fly ins after that public humiliation.
I had won a trophy at her flight-school's sponsored fly-in the previous year beating her most experienced CFI, which provoked the second contest a year later at a fly-in she'd hosted specially for the event. In that second contest she was most-determined that her own clients/students should win a trophy so she increased her chances by offering 3 trophies in 3 pilot qualification categories: Student/Private/Commercial or Higher pilot categories.
A chalk/lime-line was laid across the grass runway about one-third down the runway at the chosen fly-in site, and (for Private pilots or higher) the power was to be pulled completely off on downwind and no power allowed to be added without disqualification. (One could land beyond the chalk line but not short of it.) Students did not have to pull the power all the way off on downwind. Throughout their approach they could reduce but never add power without disqualification and could use flaps all they wished. Private pilots could use slips. Commercial or better could do neither. My newest primary-student who'd only soloed x-country the previous week won the Student category trophy, ...my Private-rated commercial applicant student (whom I'd also taught for his Private ticket) won the Private category and Yours-Truly won the Commercial or Higher trophy.
To my knowlege she never offered trophies at any fly ins after that public humiliation.
SPOTTY LANDINS FLAP DUMPS AN OTHER BS
WAL I SPEKT THAT THIS POUR GUY WHO WUZ GONNA GIT HIMSELF A 170 WILL HED FER THU CLOSEST MAULY SHOP NOW. WHAT EVER HE WUZ THINKIN BOUT GITTIN - HE GOT SROUNDED WITH YOU PECKERS AN I SPECKT HE DOANT NOE VER MUCH MORE BOUT 170S THAN HE WANTED TO. 
BUT SINCE YUALL STARTED THIS WONDERMENT BOUIT SLPIPN ( A GURLY KINDA GARMENT OR WUSSY FLYIN TEKNIQUE)
I DID THU DASTERDLY DEED JEST WUNCE CLOST TU THU GROUN. I WUZOF THE END OF THU GRASS RUNNYWAY AT MANY WITH A FULL LOAD OF PEEPLES AND BAGGYGE. SHE JES BUCKED WUNCE AN I LET HER HAVE BAK HER HEAD PURTY QUICK AND ONLY LOSS ABOUT 100'. DINT SKEER ME CAUSE I AIN'T FRAID O NUTHIN (OOPS - CEPT DEENIE)
SPOTTY LANDINGS: THEM WUZ WUN O MY FAVRIT THINNGS WHAR I KEP OLE DELTA FER YEARS. THE AAA (NOT ALKYHOLICS - - -) AXED ME NOT TO ENTER AFTER I WUN THEIR TROFHY 3 YEARS INA ROW. SO DEENIE ENTERD THE CONTESTS AND WUN THU BLOON BUST AN WETH ME AS BOMMER SHE GOT THE TROFHY FOR BOM DROP! ILL TOLE YOU SUMPIN GAY HORN - - I NEVER RUBB SALT IN THU SKRACTHES I PUT INNA HIDES OF THEM UPPITY ANTIKE PLANE DRIVERS THO. EENY WAY THE LAS TROFYS THE GAVE OUT WUZNT WORTH GAS TU WIN EM. LITTLE OLE BITTY LOW WING CERAMIK PLANE ONA LIL PINE BOARD.
BUT SINCE YUALL STARTED THIS WONDERMENT BOUIT SLPIPN ( A GURLY KINDA GARMENT OR WUSSY FLYIN TEKNIQUE)
I DID THU DASTERDLY DEED JEST WUNCE CLOST TU THU GROUN. I WUZOF THE END OF THU GRASS RUNNYWAY AT MANY WITH A FULL LOAD OF PEEPLES AND BAGGYGE. SHE JES BUCKED WUNCE AN I LET HER HAVE BAK HER HEAD PURTY QUICK AND ONLY LOSS ABOUT 100'. DINT SKEER ME CAUSE I AIN'T FRAID O NUTHIN (OOPS - CEPT DEENIE)
SPOTTY LANDINGS: THEM WUZ WUN O MY FAVRIT THINNGS WHAR I KEP OLE DELTA FER YEARS. THE AAA (NOT ALKYHOLICS - - -) AXED ME NOT TO ENTER AFTER I WUN THEIR TROFHY 3 YEARS INA ROW. SO DEENIE ENTERD THE CONTESTS AND WUN THU BLOON BUST AN WETH ME AS BOMMER SHE GOT THE TROFHY FOR BOM DROP! ILL TOLE YOU SUMPIN GAY HORN - - I NEVER RUBB SALT IN THU SKRACTHES I PUT INNA HIDES OF THEM UPPITY ANTIKE PLANE DRIVERS THO. EENY WAY THE LAS TROFYS THE GAVE OUT WUZNT WORTH GAS TU WIN EM. LITTLE OLE BITTY LOW WING CERAMIK PLANE ONA LIL PINE BOARD.
OLE GAR SEZ - 4 Boats, 4 Planes, 4 houses. I've got to quit collecting!
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
I've used Erics technique for a long time now quite a lot in Champs. One thing not mentioned is that in addition to a higher sink rate You're going slower so you take more time to cover the distance to the runway thus you loose more altitude. Sorta the opposite from the student who is high and pushes the nose down to try to make the runway and very quickly overshoots.
I don't think it's taught by many flight schools. Perhaps because you're flirting near stall speed. Which is why I shy away from it in gusty winds or when there is a possibility of wind shear.
I don't think it's taught by many flight schools. Perhaps because you're flirting near stall speed. Which is why I shy away from it in gusty winds or when there is a possibility of wind shear.
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
The beautifully designed A behaves well in slips with flaps at any position! Also, not having to carry around counter weights, etc, being such a light aircraft you really don't need brakes to roll to a short landing. This allows A's to approach an airport in the non-nose-high attitude and turn off at any desired intersection. Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
BEHAVIN WELL
NOW IFFN WE COULD JES GITCHEW TO BEHAVE! ! ! !
AND A NUTHER THANG - GOIN ROUN WITH YER NOSE TOO HI WILL GITCHEW DROUNDED SOMETIME
AND A NUTHER THANG - GOIN ROUN WITH YER NOSE TOO HI WILL GITCHEW DROUNDED SOMETIME
OLE GAR SEZ - 4 Boats, 4 Planes, 4 houses. I've got to quit collecting!
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rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm