The International Cessna^® 170 Association

When you understand oils and thier additives then you must understand the marketing departments of all the oil companies will cater to the common beliefs.

And that is why the old wives tales of "oil" are so difficult to debunk.

I'll wager that IF we could hold a accurate survey of pilots/owners, a major portion still believe the "D" is for detergent..

and all aviation oils are AD "Aviation Detergent"

and remember many of the good old boys the are heads of departements of engine manufacturers, are the ones that were taught the old wives tales. and believe them to be gosple. and pass that info to the lawyers to write the CYA statements for the companies..

I have several engines that ran 20W50 Phillips from day 1 to TBO they broke in properly, and ran great.

All 0-330 had the fillter added.

The last engine I put Superior cylinders on was broke in on 20W50 Phillips, and it also had no problems, but the engine prior to that, was broke in on Aero Shell (mineral) and glazed, plus the rocker shaft bushings were beyond limits at 20 hours. It has taken over a year for the cylinder manufacture and the cylinder distributator to make it good.

No thanks, I'll take ECI cylinders, and 20W50 for no problems any day..

once burned, is once learned even for a dummy like me......

bye bye ------runem if you gottem..

Tom D. barb-tom@whidbey.net (that's new)

Thanks for the email update, Tom. Next time you're in Spicewood give me a bit more time and we'll have more than just hamburgers! (I smoke a mean piece of meat, and you and the missus have a place to stay!)

Back to oil,...

Yep. Marketing is a huge "driver" in corporate mentality and discourse. There's no money in producing non-AD mineral oil. It's a minor market. Sure would be nice to dispense with it. (Damn mfr's and industry experience that continue to insist on non-AD mineral oil for new engines.)

Are you saying thay you'll provide warranty against any glazing with ECI's used with Phillips 20W50? (their AD oil, as opposed to Phillips 20W50-M)?

The problem as I see it is, that AD oils have a reputation that occasionally falls thru on break-in. Straight-weight mineral oils have never been blamed as the cause for such failures. It's a pretty simple decision for me, when the mfr's also specify non AD oil. Try to call it Old Wives Tale's in an effort to discredit wide-spread experience if you want to, .... if you're a brave sort of guy, who likes to "buck" the history of engine break in experience....have at it. It's your money. IMHO

(is this horse dead yet?)

gahorn wrote:
(is this horse dead yet?)

I hope........Debunk old wives tales ever time you get the chance..

Thanks for the offer, the kids live in maryland now, so it'll be a while before we have an oppornunity to be in Tx.

gahorn wrote:Thanks for the email update, Tom. Next time you're in Spicewood give me a bit more time and we'll have more than just hamburgers! (I smoke a mean piece of meat, and you and the missus have a place to stay!)

Back to oil,...

Yep. Marketing is a huge "driver" in corporate mentality and discourse. There's no money in producing non-AD mineral oil. It's a minor market. Sure would be nice to dispense with it. (Damn mfr's and industry experience that continue to insist on non-AD mineral oil for new engines.)

Are you saying thay you'll provide warranty against any glazing with ECI's used with Phillips 20W50? (their AD oil, as opposed to Phillips 20W50-M)?

The problem as I see it is, that AD oils have a reputation that occasionally falls thru on break-in. Straight-weight mineral oils have never been blamed as the cause for such failures. It's a pretty simple decision for me, when the mfr's also specify non AD oil. Try to call it Old Wives Tale's in an effort to discredit wide-spread experience if you want to, .... if you're a brave sort of guy, who likes to "buck" the history of engine break in experience....have at it. It's your money. IMHO

(is this horse dead yet?)

George,
Tom is right on this subject. You will find that both Continental and Lycoming specify AD oil for their turbo-charged engines for good reason.
You will also find that Walt Atkinson of Advanced Pilot Seminars and GAMI strongly support using AD oil for breakin on any engine with an oil filter. You will find that RAM aircraft in your neck of the woods also mandates Phillips 20W-50 for both breakin and operation of their engines for warranty coverage. How you operate the engine matters more than the oil used. Just my point of view having built both O-300s and IO-360s and achieved normal breakin with AD oil and review of literature available.

The following is directly from RAMS web sight not Oil Recommendations as I see it. We operate 3 RAM 414A's and have had many others in the past. Follwing RAMs procedures most of our engines reach TBO.
From RAM
Mineral Oil and Mineral Based Oils
• Break-in procedures: RAM uses Mineral Oil
• Normal operations: RAM uses Mineral Based Ashless Dispersant (AD) oils


Ashless Dispersant (AD) Oil
Ashless Dispersant Oil could be written as Ashless and Dispersant Oil. There are two distinct features to remember about AD oil. Ashless stems from a requirement to clarify that the oil does not leave behind any ashes, or burning embers as it cleans. Decades ago in aviation history, oils that cleaned involved metallic cleaning particles that left embers. Such glow ing metallic embers contributed to pre-ignition. Detergent oils have long since been removed from aviation piston engines. Aviation oils that clean are required to be Ashless.
When an oil has Dispersant qualities, the particles created and removed by cleaning are suspended (dispersed) within the oil. Being dispersed, they are collected better by the oil filter. During the initial engine break-in period, RAM believes that AD cleansing is premature.
RAM recommends a non dispersant Mineral Oil during the initial twenty-five hour break-in period of an aircraft piston engine, or replacement cylinder.

Break-in Oil
Break-in procedures should be followed whether replacing one cylinder or six, and that includes using a Multi-Viscosity Mineral Oil such as SAE 20W-50 Phillips Type-M.
The minimum break-in period should be considered the first twenty-five hours of operation. Turbocharged engines typically break-in sooner due to higher peak cylinder pressures. Therefore, the oil should be changed as soon as oil consumption stabilizes, but no later than the first twenty-five hours of operation.
At that time, oil should be changed to an Ashless Dispersant (AD) Mineral Based Oil.

Well mayby this horse can still run.

Doesn't anyone else use "Pep Boys" house brand detergent oil???

It's only $8.75 a case and there's a $3.00 msil in rebate!!

And another thing--it meets API Spec. SC. I realize this is a really,really old API Spec., but it's newer than the engine.

Metal Master wrote:The following is directly from RAMS web sight not Oil Recommendations as I see it.

Break-in Oil
Break-in procedures should be followed whether replacing one cylinder or six, and that includes using a Multi-Viscosity Mineral Oil such as SAE 20W-50 Phillips Type-M.
The minimum break-in period should be considered the first twenty-five hours of operation. Turbocharged engines typically break-in sooner due to higher peak cylinder pressures. Therefore, the oil should be changed as soon as oil consumption stabilizes, but no later than the first twenty-five hours of operation.
At that time, oil should be changed to an Ashless Dispersant (AD) Mineral Based Oil.

Well mayby this horse can still run.

Well, as you have seen by Tom's post, there is serious doubt as to whether there is any difference between Phillips Type M and their regular product. If you look at the regular Phillips bottle, you will see language that it is specifically recommended for breakin for all aircraft engines.
All of Phillips product is 100% mineral oil, that is not in dispute. Whether there is dispersant or not may be in question. As Tom points out, dispersant is not intended to be a detergent, doesn't have those properties and doesn't do the "cleansing" that your quote refers to. Has nothing to do with the lubrication properties. As you point out and what i was saying is RAM specifies Phillips 20W-50 as the only oil for their engines. IMHO, whether you breakin with the type M or the regular Phillips is immaterial.

As I've mentioned on another thread I used Phillips 20W-50 to break in my overhauled Lycoming two years ago. Break in seemed faster than with my old standby Aeroshell mineral oil. I've had the pleasure (?) of breaking in about ten new engines in the past. Would I use Phillips again for break in? Absolutely. 120 hours on it now burning about 1 quart in 15 hours.

I have now done three break-ins of my Mellennium cylinders without any problems, I've had issues with other parts of the engine which caused the three break-ins. When I bought my cylinders they came with the service letter that outlines everything you need to do and it is what I followed. Superior service letter 96-008C outlines the break-in procedure with mineral oil, briefly it says: minimize ground run, maintain level flight at 75% power for the first hour then vary the setting between 65% and 75% every 15 minutes for the second hour. After that continue flying at 65-75% leaning approximatly 75 rich of peak until oil consumption stabilizes. I would be happy to provide a copy of the service letter if you would like it.

There is no reason to let the water get muddied by "new" definitions of commonly accepted terms. When 99% of the aviation world speaks of "mineral" oil...they are speaking of NON-AD oil that originates from an oil well....i.e., not a synthetic. That portion of this discussion thread is a distraction from the true nature of the issue.
In all cases, we are talking about oil of mineral origins...not synthetic.
For goodness sake, lets all agree to stop muddying the water over that matter.
Now, this discussion actually revolves around whether it's "best" to break in using NON AD oil (so-called "mineral" oil, the name which has been used by the industry since time immemorial) or if it's "best" to use AD oil....so-called "ashless dispersant".
Kelly, I believe your earlier reference (" If you look at the regular Phillips bottle, you will see language that it is specifically recommended for breakin for all aircraft engines." ) ... is merely PHILLIPS recommendation. NOT the engine mfr's.
Next, RAM actually does NOT recommend AD oil for break-in, as Metal Master accurately quoted them.
Also, re: " You will find that both Continental and Lycoming specify AD oil for their turbo-charged engines for good reason. " ..Yes. And the reason is:.... because the turbocharger so boosts the M.P. of the engine that the rings are more forcefully pressed against the cylinder walls and therefore not likely to allow glazing before breakin....UNLIKE most non-turbocharged engines which are unpredictable with AD oils and breakin more consistently with NON-AD mineral oils.
Both Continental and Lycoming actually REQUIRE non-AD mineral oil for breakin of their non-turboed or normally aspirated engines. And they state so in writing and at their websites.
Also, be aware that there is a significant difference between Phillips 20W50 oil and Phillips 20W50-M oil. The "M" stands for "mineral"....as in NON-AD...mineral oil. The reason Phillips makes 20W50-M oil is because they are catering to their corporate realization and acknowlegement that Continental and Lycoming strongly recommend/insist upon non-AD oil for breakin of normally aspirated aircraft engines. (And THAT....is no Old Wives Tale. It's a fact.)

blueldr wrote:Doesn't anyone else use "Pep Boys" house brand detergent oil???

I wouldn't use it in my airplane engine. (But I have to admit, I can't find any reason, either documented or not, why automotive non-detergent oil can't be used to break in an airplane engine. A mineral, non-additive, non-detergent oil...shouldn't be any different for either automotive or aviaton use, in theory. But the automotive oil does not claim to meet the mil-spec of aviation oil, and the breakin of aircraft engines is such a short-duration event and the oil-cost of breakin is so insignificant relative to the cost of the overhaul, that it makes no sense to me to risk it. It's not going to be a big money-saver to use auto oil for aircraft-engine breakin. Just buy a fillup of non-AD mineral, aviaton oil, use it for a few hours until breakin and drain it away. (And I'd never use "detergent" auto oil in my aircraft engine, for all the right reasons.)

gahorn wrote:

blueldr wrote:Doesn't anyone else use "Pep Boys" house brand detergent oil???

I wouldn't use it in my airplane engine. (But I have to admit, I can't find any reason, either documented or not, why automotive non-detergent oil can't be used to break in an airplane engine. .)

The reasoning is simple auto oils are not ashless. they burn and leave a metalic ash..

Other wise there is no difference, I build a 0-300-A for an old airboat about 50 years ago and it is still running fine on DELO 400 15W50, with a filter add on.

When I want to remove a 0-300 for rebuild I run a auto detergent oil in it before removal. (about 5 minutes) the hard oil varnish will wash right off in PD 680 solvent.

Tom Downey wrote:

gahorn wrote:

blueldr wrote:Doesn't anyone else use "Pep Boys" house brand detergent oil???

I wouldn't use it in my airplane engine. (But I have to admit, I can't find any reason, either documented or not, why automotive non-detergent oil can't be used to break in an airplane engine. .)

The reasoning is simple auto oils are not ashless. they burn and leave a metalic ash..

Other wise there is no difference, I build a 0-300-A for an old airboat about 50 years ago and it is still running fine on DELO 400 15W50, with a filter add on.

When I want to remove a 0-300 for rebuild I run a auto detergent oil in it before removal. (about 5 minutes) the hard oil varnish will wash right off in PD 680 solvent.

Tom! Non detergent, non-additive, auto oil does not burn and leave metallic ash. It is .... plain ordinary oil with nothing added. Exactly like non-AD aero oil. Just because it doesn't have "aviation", or Phillips Aero or Aero Shell written on it does not make it ....er....NON-ashless. The only thing the term "ashless" applies to with regard to aero oils or any other kind of oil is the additives. Not the base oil. (In this case, I was talking only of non-additive oils...both aero and auto.)
Man! Are we gettin' all wrapped around the axle over nothing important.