hotrod 0300, 0145, higher hp,

[scott]

scott
(new to the group) (warning I tend to get on a rant occasionally)

I have built special tight tolerance motors for "blueprint" applications. YOU MUST ALLOW EXTRA COOLING IN A TIGHT TOLERANCE MOTOR. To ignore this fact will make your rings friction weld to the cylinder wall. The ring to wall interface becomes plastic causing micro welding. Particularly where the ring stops and reverses direction at the top of the barrel. If you want a blue print motor and do not blue print your baffling you will inadvertently become an internal engine part friction welder.
The fact that the engine seized is the fault of the installer. I do not work for lycon they are more like my compettition, but not really.

scott

[blueldr]

You cannot make a Silk Purse out of a Sows Ear!

That's why Continental made the IO-360.

[zero.one.victor]

Some might say that's why Cessna made the 180.

Eric

[N170BP]

Carefull Eric....

We might get tarred & feathered for saying that at any
170 convention we may attend!

For the record, I wish I had enough money to own a C-170
& a C-180 (and a P-51, a DC-3, a Staggerwing, etc. etc. etc.....).

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP

[wa4jr]

I'll agree with George that the core engine is pretty darn good and not much can be done to improve it. I think the only things that can be done are changing the valve timing a bit, raising the compression slightly, and going to "waisted" valves with reduced stem diameters under the heads for improved flow. Perhaps there is enough space to use larger intake and exhaust valves? And keeping this slightly modified O-300 cool would be even more important as has been suggested. These techniques have long enjoyed wide acceptance in the world of liquid cooled engines. If temps could be controlled on the air cooled variant, comparable reliability should be expected. If these mild mods could ever be approved and incorporated in an economical manner during overhaul.....well....I can dream can't I? Certainly a more attractive prospect than shelling out the equivalent of another complete C-170 just for another engine.

[Joe Dickey]

blueldr is correct....you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear............you can, however, make a really handsome little leather bag that is stronger and more practical than a silk purse!!

We have the technology!! If we can build $2K engines (new) for $20K cars that run 200,000 miles and get 40 mpg, why can't we build a NEW $4K engine for our planes that will do the same???

Answer: liabiity insurance, law suits and federal bureaucrats trying to help us with assistance like they provided recently for 337s. There is no profit motive in creating a better engine or performance parts for existing engines if it takes 10X the development cost to insure the product against the liability claims!! Last I heard is the liability insurance premium in the aviation industry is about 35 - 40% of retail cost of the product which is cumulative thru each manufacturer/supplier. Ask Hersey if they will be developing any new candy bars anytime soon!!!

Just think of the benefit to Wilber and Orville if they had the assistance of the US government AND trial lawyers!!!

[GAHorn]

blueldr is correct....you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear............you can, however, make a really handsome little leather bag that is stronger and more practical than a silk purse!!

We have the technology!! If we can build $2K engines (new) for $20K cars that run 200,000 miles and get 40 mpg, why can't we build a NEW $4K engine for our planes that will do the same???

Answer: liabiity insurance, law suits and federal bureaucrats trying to help us with assistance like they provided recently for 337s. There is no profit motive in creating a better engine or performance parts for existing engines if it takes 10X the development cost to insure the product against the liability claims!! Last I heard is the liability insurance premium in the aviation industry is about 35 - 40% of retail cost of the product which is cumulative thru each manufacturer/supplier. Ask Hersey if they will be developing any new candy bars anytime soon!!!

Just think of the benefit to Wilber and Orville if they had the assistance of the US government AND trial lawyers!!!

That's the favorite complaint about development....to blame the beaurocracy....but that's not the problem. The problem with developing a "$2K engine" for a $20K vehicle ....is market. There's no market! If you spend money in the automotive world you have a huge market. A basic $2K engine in the automotive world will fit into 5 different car models and 3 trucks and several marine/industrial purposes. Think about the cost of that R&D spread over that market.
"Ford LTD....What does that LTD mean? Limited? Limited to what? "All we can sell!" Ford makes 350,000 of these each year and they call it a LIMITED?"---Jerry Seinfeld.
The reason airplane developments cost so damn much is the limited market. There is absolutely NO market for O-300 engines these days. We have less than 2,000 members in our organization and even WE can't agree to like this engine. How can anyone expect some aftermarket shadetree to make any money on "hopping up" this engine.
Just wanted to throw a little reality-check in on this.

[Joe Dickey]

George,

Reality is a scary thing........

If we round our association plane ownership numbers to an even 1000 and 5% needs a rebuild every year, I think that equals $750,000 just for the engine costs per year....not big bucks, but perhaps could get the attention of a "shade tree" somewhere.

Then....consider a 21st century engine that can produce 150 - 300 hp depending upon the configuration, weigh 400 lbs wet, have a TBO of 1200 hours and cost $6K new and $1,200 to overhaul with new parts.......is there a market for that?

Sure there is....but it's not certified for that price!! The price would at least 4X by the time you add in the certification and liability insurance....all I'm saying is, it's time to start over and get new life blood in the aviation industry....now that we have taught them how and given them the tools, the Chinese are capable of quickly surpassing the US and are in many cases, because their bureaucrates don't play or play by different rules!!

[GAHorn]

Yes, Joe, but the certification issue of the engine is only part of the problem. Surely you aren't advocating production/installation of new engines without appropriate information being available to the owner/end-user? That engine installation changes the performance, flight characteristics, range, etc. etc. of the aircraft. There's no way around that despite any disappointment with beaurocracy. It's not that beaurocracy that adds the cost,...it's the research/development. All the beaurocracy does is provide a legally enforceable manner to force mfr's to do the homework in the interest of the public safety. (If you simply want to have a one-off hotrod...then there's a provision for that too! It's called an experimental airworthiness certificate.)

[wa4jr]

Well, the company would have to go out on a limb...but I just bet that if $4K engines were out there along with $40K airframes...new off the line with modern cost cutting manufacturing techniques....the market would be there. Many folks want to learn to fly but don't. Why? Cost! Build the affordable basic aircraft and the people will be there. Just look what some small companies are starting to do with the light jet market...making the traditional turbo prop and jet builders quake in their pants! How about Toyota...they are silently working on the "affordable" personal aircraft. If we don't watch out, the Japanese will do to our airplane market what they did to the auto market in the mid 70s. You are correct though....that liability costs are the big issue. Get some SERIOUS tort reform and hold individuals responsible for their own actions and we might just see American companies venturing into the $40K/$4K airplane market. Oh...I just thought of a problem...the avionics for even basic VFR are going to cost more than that airplane

[zero.one.victor]

I think maybe that's sorta where the new sport pilot/light sport aircraft proposal is going. Most pilots are interested in it due to the medical certificate OR driver's license aspect,but I believe the aircraft certification part of the proposal is supposed to make certification of new models less painful for the manufacturer. However,the way the whole process is dragging on,I'm starting to have my doubts that we'll ever see anything come of it in our lifetime.

Eric

[Joe Dickey]

Hi George!!

Understand your point and it's not important that we agree on this issue. Guess I just love flying and want things to be better for my kids and the others we leave behind.

And, safety is VERY important to me, however, society has circumvented the natural culling process of the herd, allowing some to survive who otherwise would be too stupid to live. Maybe we NEED to leave them behind at the next winter migration.

[Joe Dickey]

Found in the AOPA on-line news letter, 7 Feb 03:

HONDA, CONTINENTAL TEAM UP ON PISTON ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
Honda and Teledyne Continental have teamed up to study the market for the
next generation of piston aircraft engines. Honda has already developed
an engine that company officials said is more advanced than current versions
in terms of weight, fuel efficiency, power output, and emissions. A Honda
spokesman would not provide performance figures, but did say that it is a
water-cooled, four-cylinder engine and runs on unleaded gas. The engine
has been undergoing testing at Teledyne's facility in Mobile, Alabama,
during a two-year partnership between the companies. Honda also has been
developing a turbine engine.

[Dave Clark]

I'd go for the turbine!

[wa4jr]

I saw this new also and immediately starting thinking of refit into a C-170. Radiators mounted in the cooling intake area? This could open up a whole new world for the 170 and other aircraft...and make the 100LL pusher quake in their shoes I really hate the thought of installing a Japanese part on my airplane other than in the avionics department...but if the Japanese offer an attractive cost effective alternative to the O-360 conversion then I am willing to listen. But...I'll just bet that this new engine will cost more than my entire airplane did