Landing technique

[Paul-WI]

Ouch!!!

[N3548C]

if it bounces youre landing too fast.
the horton kit exacerbates the problem.... it should allow you to slow down more
and remain comfortable at slow speeds.
practice slow flights down the entire runway length again and again, until you can smoothly
fly it on to the pavement. when the main wheels touch push the stick forward.

I spoke with one 170B instructor and flew with another last weekend, and this is just what we found. I was flying it like a regular Skyhawk wing and needed to get it slowed up a little more. Not the greasers I was getting in the Citabria, but OK for sure. Thanks again to all who posted on this issue.

[ole' blue]

Something that helped me a lot was trimming the nose up aggressively on final. It requires decent yoke pressure on a go-around, but it's doable. I felt that I was holding the elevator full aft but wasn't quite there. Helped me a lot.

[MontanaBird]

After logging more than my fair share of siesmic arrivals on my STOL 170B, I can say that the technique used and what is experienced between a non-STOL 170 and what you have is quite noticeable. It is not the easiest plane to make smooth landings in, from what I have experienced, compared to a Maule or a Super Cub.

The aircraft is sensitive to approach speed, as it does stall slower than stock, and the wing will continue flying at speeds that will surprise you. Take you time, don't hurry the landing, and let 'er settle down. It will not descend at the same rate at the same reduced power setting, and you need to remember that while planning your approach. You will notice the different characteristics in a crosswind, but hang with it. When I do use a true wheel landing you need to get it right, or once again with that high lift wing, you become an aviator again in a hurry.

I have tried all kind of techniques and ended up with what I call the MontanaBird 'modified three point' . With little or no wind I will have 55 indicated over the numbers or lower, reduced from 60 on final, then just bleed off the speed. Hold it off and you will touch down in a slightly nose high attitude, mains touch first, then the tail. I usually don't use any more than 3 notches of flaps unless I am going into a doggone short field or one that is soft/rough. use your trim. It's not a 206 and if you do a go around you can manage the beast. Two notches is even better as the nose stays a little higher than with 3. If we have that x-wind I will go from 2 to 0, depending on my fear factor. Go up to 3,000 agl and do some airwork, see how that wing feels at the different approach speeds and flap settings and you'll get it wired.

And really, if you get the wreckage on the centerline and can walk away from it, we all will applaud you for a job well done.

[canav8]

Something that helped me a lot was trimming the nose up aggressively on final. It requires decent yoke pressure on a go-around, but it's doable. I felt that I was holding the elevator full aft but wasn't quite there. Helped me a lot.

Ole Blue- the technique is called controls loaded. I find that guys who have a propensity to over control the inputs usually fair well when I introduce this style. It works well for the heavy handed also, by the way that includes me. regards, Doug

[hilltop170]

When I help pilots learn wheel landings in the 170, I have found the best method is to have them fly a stabilized approach using pitch attitude for airspeed control and power for glideslope control. We're not trying to make the shortest landing or even trying to hit a certain spot at that point, those are things to perfect AFTER the basic technique is mastered.

What we are trying to learn is proper approach speed, steady descent rate, and smooth touchdown. A good stabilized approach will have constant airspeed and descent rate right to the runway with pitch held until inches above the runway then level off only, without flaring. Power should be held right to the runway and reduced to idle right at touchdown or a second before. Chopping power over the numbers or somewhere on final should be avoided since it eliminates the stabilized approach at that point and you're making corrections from that point instead of holding steady. That complicates the wheel landing unnecessarily.

The biggest problem I see in not being able to wheel-land smoothly is the pilot has a tendency to hold the plane off the runway (as in a three-point landing) letting it slow and pitch up instead of deliberately flying the plane onto the runway in the level attitude at close to zero sink rate without forcing it on. What holding the plane off does is to effectively flare the plane when it needs to be level. Flaring is a natural reaction since three-points are usually taught first and that is what the pilot reverts to. As it slows down, the plane assumes a more nose-up attitude which sets up the plane for a crow-hop type bounce when the mains touch then the tailwheel, then the mains, etc, etc, etc, until something happens. Either the plane runs out of energy and stops, the bounces get worse with possible damage, or the pilot goes around.

One hard and fast rule I use is if the plane bounces twice, don't let it hit a third time, go around. We all know how springy the 170 landing gear is and how much it likes to bounce. Salvaging a botched approach and touchdown to completion seldom helps teach proper technique, it usually intimidates and frustrates (and bangs up the plane unnecessarily). Going around lets the pilot calm down and reset the approach to proper values.

Using a final leg approach speed of 70mph indicated, trimmed slightly nose-down, with full flaps in a 170A and 2nd notch flaps in a 170B sets up the plane in an attitude from which a wheel landing can be easily be accomplished (and also a go-around if necessary). Less than 70mph indicated results in a more nose-up/tail low attitude wich complicates the touchdown. Trimming to slightly nose down does three things:
1. Backpressure helps reduce the tendency to flare.
2. Upon touchdown, relaxing the backpressure helps hold the plane on the runway.
3. Backpressure takes the "dead-band" slack out of the control system making it more responsive.

Practice is always the best teacher and coupled with proper technique will result in perfecting wheel landings. It does take time though, I had 50 hours in the 170 before I felt comfortable with wheel landings.

Once wheel landings are mastered and you have a good feel for them, then approach speed can be slowed down and hitting a certain spot on the runway can be perfected.

[hilltop170]

Aryana-
Thanks, it took quite awhile to figure it out back in the 1970's, I didn't have an instructor back then that could pass it on. In fact, I had NO check-out in the C-170. I sold my T-Craft to the guy I bought the 170 from and he flew off in my T-Craft and left me standing on the ramp with my new plane and nothing but the pilot handbook to get me home. Luckily, I had 250 hours of taildragger time and everything worked out ok, but I was very nervous for the first 50 hours or so.

Your post continues on where the initial learning curve starts to flatten out after learning the wheel-landing basics. There are many different ways to approach and wheel-land the 170. Pilots should learn and practice as many different ways as possible depending on their ability and confidence. No one should try anything beyond their ability or personal confidence level without a qualified instructor. All the different variations take practice to be proficient but it sure is fun.

I personally like to hold some power all the way to the ground. I have a good friend who wrecked his 195 because he closed the throttle without carb heat. Sure, carb heat would probably prevent that but it happened before he noticed it on a rapid descent. There was NO power when he opened the throttle. Also, flying in cold climates such as Alaska or anywhere down south in the winter, it's good to carry some power to keep the engine warm and to let you know the engine is still capable of producing power. You only have to look at the EGT to get an idea of what kind of temperature cycles the cylinders go thru from idle to full throttle, somewhere from 500 to 1000 degrees F! That can't be good for them even though they take it time after time.

The bottom line is, every landing takes concentration and execution to be done correctly. It doesn't matter how many good ones we just did, the next one is the only one that matters when you're in the air. They are all easy to botch up if you don't pay attention, no matter who is flying.

[canav8]

While I do not disagree with anything you have said. It is all correct. The only problem is that it does not work for everyone especially big ophy helicopter pilots. Richard it is a fact that a good approach has the best chance for a good landing a bad approach will insure a bad landing in my book. The problem lies in the fact that flying is definitely a finess. Not everyone has finess especially if the are transitioning from training wheel to conventional gear aircraft. Ole Blue was describing a teaching technique that sometimes is used when the instructor has difficulty reaching the student with regards to landings. I have taught it a couple times. This is in conjunction with everything you said with regard to stabilized approaches. Not every pilot is a Bob Hoover or a Patty Wagstaff.

[GAHorn]

... Not every pilot is a Bob Hoover or a Patty Wagstaff.

That is correct. SOME of us CAN hold our liquor.

Richard has posted an excellent method, IMO. (Just to make a clarification....on a "B" model.... "second notch" of flaps has different meanings for different B-models. I suggest we discuss flap settings using ACTUAL FLAP DEFLECTION ANGLES...such as Zero degrees (flaps UP), 10-degrees, 20-degrees, 30-degrees, and 40-degrees.
My interpretation of Richards suggestion of using "second notch" of flaps is actually THIRTY degrees, which on later or modified B-models corresponds to the 3rd notch of flaps, not the second.

[hilltop170]

Good call George, but actually, I was referring to 20 degrees of flap in the B model. Being less familiar with the B model, I forgot some don't have the 10 degree notch. When first learning wheel landings, I think it is a good idea to use a flap setting where you can go-around without having to change the flaps. Things happen very quickly if you start crow-hopping and having to deal with flaps is an unnecessary complication at first. A go-around can easily be made with 20 degrees in a B model. In some cases (high density altitude) 30 degrees may be too much, not allowing the plane to climb properly.

Once a pilot feels confident with wheel landings, by all means, use 40 degrees.

[hilltop170]

..........The problem lies in the fact that flying is definitely a finess. Not everyone has finess especially if the are transitioning from training wheel to conventional gear aircraft. Ole Blue was describing a teaching technique that sometimes is used when the instructor has difficulty reaching the student with regards to landings............

Doug-
I thought all you helicopter guys were nothing but finesse!!!

It's true, when you first start learning wheel landings, finesse is one of the things most pilots need to develop, but that is what the transition is all about. It takes a lot of time and more than a few go-arounds to get the feel of the procedure and picture in your mind what wheel landings are all about.

I have just never thought that full nose-up trim is a good thing for any landings, due to the potential loss of control in a go-around situation. Until the trim is adjusted back to climb setting in a go-around, the plane is doing everything it can to stall.

Not saying your method doesn't work, it obviously does, I just prefer other methods.

[GAHorn]

Has anyone noticed that Cessna 170-Bs do not need large trim changes from that found at cruise...all the way to landing with full flaps?
Try it sometime. Get the airplane trimmed at cruise.....then WITHOUT touching the trim-wheel......reduce power to 1500-1700 RPM and wait until it's nose heavy...then add a notch or two of flaps. Notice that it's now slowed down to about 70-80 mph and is back IN TRIM! Now, as it slows further, add the rest of the flaps, and ....notice that as the airplane slows to 60-70 mph...full flaps...the trim wheel position has NOT CHANGED significantly from the cruise-trim position. One can complete the approach and landing from cruise configuration all the way to the runway without changing trim!

It is not necessary to reduce power, trim nose up, reduce speed, trim nose up, ...add flaps trim nose down, add flaps and power, trim nose down again... any more! AND...this means that a full-power go-around also DOES NOT REQUIRE LARGE TRIM CHANGES and stuggling with the airplane wildly pitching UP. Simply reduce flaps for the goaround immediately after adding the power.

As a technique... as one reduces power to slow for approach, and as one adds flaps for the landing...simply wait until the airplane becomes nose-heavy and requires nose up trim change...but instead add flaps to bring the airplane back to a neutral trim.

(No, I did not discover this myself. After about 5 years of ownership... I NOTICED IT IN THE OWNERS MANUAL! A reading of the Landing CheckList describes slowing, and deploying flaps and then, the final instruction in Item 6: "Retain cruising elevator trim tab setting")

[Green Bean]

In the 1972, I met a Kansas Cessna 170 owner, former Cessna employee, who gave me that same instruction on a normal spring Kansas windy day. We did wheel landings with all flap configuration (0-40), including cross winds, somewhere north of Wichita. The set up on the down wind, as he said, "when your in trim in cruise, it will be the same for landing". Slow it down, hold a little back pressure, add a notch of flaps and it slows to in trim condition. You never have to make a trim adjustment. The rest is of the approach is with power to maintain the desired approach speed in the desired flap position (0-40). Its made no difference if the 170 has had a C145/0-300, or a Lyc 0-360, with or without Stol kits, and/VG's etc., for 37 years.

This technique also works the same in the Twin Otter.

[hilltop170]

Excellent points on using flaps vs. trim for the approach and landing. The same exact thing works in C-180s and C-185s as well. I have been using the technique for years on wheels and floats.

On my C-180, I don't use trim enough to keep it limbered up and I have to deliberately cycle it on the ground on a regular basis to keep it loose. The only real changes needed are when loads change.

I bet Cessna knew what they were doing all along and designed them that way. If so, their brilliance keeps getting discovered. It's hard to imagine they just lucked-out!

[russfarris]

Here's some good 170 bouncing! From the 1955 movie "Tarantula"; the action starts at 2:25. Russ Farris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVaLkPigjcQ