The International Cessna 170 Association

gahorn wrote:

Brad Brady wrote:...In theory when the APIA signs the aircraft off as passing an annual, He is actually saying he has looked at every thing, including every repair and mod that has been incorporated in that aircraft. He has deemed all work satisfactory, and the condition of the aircraft is within (this becomes convoluted), standards of new. ....

I know what you mean...but that's not what you wrote. The annual inspection does NOT attest that the aircraft meets "standards of new". If it's a used aircraft it cannot meet those standards.
Instead, that inspection means the aircraft has been found to meet it's type certificate, or otherwise properly-altered status,

Actually George, that's exactly what I meant, Yes, all of us with an understanding of aircraft, knows when you start an engine for the first time, the standards of "new" is diminished. Yet if an aircraft that I have worked on, and is involved in an incident, or accident, That's where my FSDO will start. That's what I meant by a convoluted, standard of new.

gahorn wrote:As for missing logs: It is my personal belief that "missing" logs are actually "deliberately destroyed" logs. Someone is hiding something. The ONLY case I've found bla bla bla

JU JES CAN'T ALYAWS KEEP FR UM STEPPIN IT CANJU? ONE FELLER HYEAR JES TOLE JEW HOW HE LOS THE SPEAKED OF BOOKS , , SO ITSA ONE FER US AN NONE FER U NOW IMA GONNA MAKE IT TOO FER US AN NONE FER YOU TOO

I had a grass strip 1/4 mile down the road from my house in Platte county MO. I would land there then taxi down the road and park in my big wide driveway. It was early December and brewing up a storm. I had 93D parked in there in the drive in front of my shop while I was doing some engine work on the C-145. I had most of the new engine cylinders and other parts along with the new Narco radios and transponder there in my shop. In my file cabinet were the logs for my '52 B - N2693D, all the 337s and documents pertaining to the history of 93D. I came home from work that evening and lit a fire in the big barrel stove to start getting the place warm so I could work there. I noticed my wood pile was getting low and as a WX system was moving in I decided to go to the woods where i had firewood cut and get a pickup load. Coming back up the road toward my house I see a pretty big fire and from the angle of my view I thought one of the neighbor's houses was on fire. NOPE! It was MY SHOP! A 30 X 40 wood frame shop makes one hell of a fire. The VFD, of which I was a member, dragged the plane away into a field across the road and saved tour house! The shop and everything in it was a total loss. In my shop was a Classic 58 VW, a vintage cedar strip boat and outboard motor, several guns, my $1500.00 radio stack and $3000.00 worth of Continental engine and Cessna parts. You know what hurt the most - - losing those log books. I was the 3rd owner of '93D and all the first flight test by the Cessna test pilot and the logged flight from Wichita to Lawrence KS. It stayed there until 1959 then a new buyer moved it to Atchison KS. During those first 7 years it's maintenance was all done by Delbert Earhart who was a cousin to Amelia Earhart! Those details were priceless and could never be recovered. It was a devastating thing to lose all the tools, guns, and parts but the things that were irreplaceable were't even covered by the insurance.

So George not all generalities cover all generalities

Ah...at last the voice of..ah whatever, it's been too long.

I had great luck with Red River State Bank. They specialize in aircraft loans and worked out great for me.

As for the airplane, the advise given here is great. Take your time and buy the best quality plane you can find for the money you want to spend. When it comes to both mods and condition, it is always cheaper to buy one finished than do it yourself... at least that has been my experience. Don't let anyone tell you that you need a B model if you want to modify it in the future. The straight 170 may have some slight restrictions on what can be done for upgrades, but the A model is just as capable of upgrades as the B. I believe they sell for cheaper because of some myth that the later models are better which deters people from the early models. This leaves the door open for those who know the differences are too subtle to make much of a difference. I have yet to see anyone do something in a B that cannot be done in an A. In fact, a big drawback of the B is not being able to slip with full flaps. Did I mention I own an A model???

juredd1 wrote:Visually from the outside I can't yet tell the difference between the two planes. So I have not been swayed much that way but I have been bitten by the interior and panel on an A model. It's perfect in pretty much every way that I think I want, now the exterior needs help, mainly just a paint job (Most likely in RED!), pretty straight bird I feel like. Then spotted a B model that I convinced myself was doable (price wise). Interior is wonder and panel is wonderful I am sure but not "it", for lack of a better word. Probably would have been "it" had I seen it first but the allure of owning the 'B' model drives me crazy. I am loosing sleep over this and my job is suffering. Is this normal?

"Laugh Out Loud" is an overused expression these days, but it applies here. Yes, this is normal! My wife still makes fun of me for the way I acted when I was shopping for my first airplane. Losing sleep, cold sweats, irrational behavior, etc. That was 20 years ago and your post was so real that I, well, laughed out loud. I know you think every airplane you look at is your last chance, but it isn't. Really, it isn't.

Take lots of pictures of any candidates you see and post them here. You'll be amazed at the excellent information you'll get.

For every "One " you find......there are 10 more out there that you haven't seen.

and when you finally buy one ........the next door neighbor will say, "Josh, I would sold you mine had I know you were looking for one".......

Just take your time, when it right , pull the trigger and don't look back.



W.

W.J.Langholz wrote:.......the next door neighbor will say, "Josh, I would sold you mine had I know you were looking for one".......

And that's how I bought mine. I'd been looking all over the country but one day my mechanic called and said, "Stop looking, I'm currently annualing the airplane you want."

Folks I really appreciate the advice I am receiving here I am having problems keeping all the names and posts straight so I hope not offend if I don't name you directly.

Bruce,
I am located in North Central, Arkansas. About 5 miles SE of the small town of Jasper. Me and my uncle have a 1700 foot grass strip (recently extended another 300 feet but not yet usable).

DaveF,
It's nice to know to know that someone else had similar issues but I am not wishing it on anyone.

WJ,
That is also my fear is that I am driving all around the country to look at these and one will show up in my backyard (Not literally as me and my uncle make up probably 30% of the pilots in this county). Did that on a hay baler last summer. Drove 3+ hours one way to pick up a baler and on the way back on that very day there was one parked by the road not 5 miles from my house. He said he just put it out that morning after I went through.


All,

I understand what you are telling me and it all makes sense. I know I can't rush this but I also know there is that remote chance that I could be blessed with an awesome plane in the first two months. It's possible that I have found that one already. Well that one that I can afford, as I have found many other ones that I can't talk my employer into giving me a big enough raise so I can fund it. Thanks again for you that have post some lender options, most appreciated as I will be in contact with them if my current second option falls through.

I am pretty much looking on barnstomers and tradeaplane. Are there other good classifieds that i should look at?

Justin

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Are there other good classifieds

Everyone else looks there too. The "deals" are those that one finds through networking. Take a few trips, visit some airports, look on the board, talk to everyone there who is willing; mechanics, FBO personnel, the waitress at the diner, etc. Amazing, sometimes, what information can be obtained that can't be otherwise...

flyguy wrote:

gahorn wrote:As for missing logs: It is my personal belief that "missing" logs are actually "deliberately destroyed" logs. Someone is hiding something. The ONLY case I've found bla bla bla

JU JES CAN'T ALYAWS KEEP FR UM STEPPIN IT CANJU? ...So George not all generalities cover all generalities

GAr, you got so much KKrapp in your junkpile you wouldn't know if you had logbooks underneath it all or not....so I guess it's true that somebody MIGHT have legitimately "lost" their logbooks.
(But it's a bit silly that of all people, YOU, ..the assistant Fire Chief of your locale fire dept. would claim his logs burned up in his own bldg.!)

Logbooks are guarded like greenbacks, because owners KNOW they represent the value of their aircraft.
So, unless the logs SUBTRACT from the aircraft's value....they are almost NEVER genuinely "lost".

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[quoteLogbooks are guarded like greenbacks, because owners KNOW they represent the value of their aircraft.
So, unless the logs SUBTRACT from the aircraft's value....they are almost NEVER genuinely "lost".[/quote]

That's so true, George. But a log book can be (manufacturered) if that is the proper term, from 337's. That's why it is imperative that you send a 337 in with the TT time, N number, and if you can, serial numbers of what you are working on, to do a 337.....

My "old comparison" about pilots and their current airplanes being like their wives/girlfriends springs to mind.

I've seen logs which have been "reconstructed" from available records at FAA, and they certainly are better than nothing....but they lack contemporary relevance. They have an "edited" personality....and large missing portions.

I have also seen logs which are wonderfully detailed works of fiction. (A certain C-175 previously owned by an A&P/IA named Jim Bell of Ardmore, OK comes to mind. You never saw such pretty handwriting, such organized paperwork, but virtually all of it masquerading-documentation, ..pure and blatant bovine excrement.)

Logs alone do not guarantee a great airplane. But all great airplanes have good logs.

Project planes are a different animal entirely. There are many fun airplanes out there that can be or have been reconstructed from incomplete assemblies and missing logs. But they are a bit like reformed harlots..... you never know what secrets might lurk in their health.

I realize there are those reading this that own airplanes with missing logs, and surely those readers have great confidence in the integrity of their airframes. But that confidence is based upon a certain amount of personal experience and history of personal involvement with that particular airplane. After a while, you know what you've got.
A potential buyer who comes up to the thing with no previous knowlege of that serial number does not have anything other than the logs to lend credibility to the story put forth by the seller.

The fact that you may have sold an airplane near your asking price does not confirm the value of the transaction or the merchandise. If there were hidden problems unknown to yourself due to missing logs, ...than those hidden problems carried forward, which may arise in the future life of that airplane and (hopefully) may never be known to you....but that does not negate the value of complete logs.

Religion has different value to each believer, but in each case, the Bible needs to be complete if it's to be used to convince others as to validity.

Aryana wrote:...I have to disagree with this George! There is a P-51 on my field that recently has had every rivet/skin taken off and reassembled like new...and although it's missing some of it's logs it's still a "great" airplane. ....

Nope. It's an excellent example of a great airplane model. A Great P-51 Airplane has all it's logs.