The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Folks,

I am looking for some info as fast as you can get it to me.

I had a pre-purchase inspection on the 170 that I was on track to purchase and the guy found couple things that he says needs fixed but one of them the owner says is not a requirement and says he has supporting documents from the local FSDO I think.

Any how I need some guidance from the forum on this issue. My guy says that the below items need attention and are past due. The owner states that he has talked with his IA and the local FAA office and says as of 2006 that it is no long mandatory to perform this inspect unless the magneto's are on a different engine than the C-145. I don't recall the specific engines but they were on the bigger end of the scale. He claims to have support documentation. My guys says that is crazy, that is like saying there is a recall on a set of tires but only if they are on a Chevy instead of Ford.

1) Magneto 500 hour internal inspections not complied with per TCM Magneto Overhaul Manual X4000, and TCM SB 643-B

2) Magneto Impulse Coupling 100 or 500 hour inspection not complied with per TCM SB 643-B, A.D 2005-12-06 and corresponding MSB 645

My guys says "They are only reciting the Airworthiness Directive at face value, and not the Mandatory Service Bulletin TCM MSB 645 that is a part of the AD."

I am not trying to side with my guy or the seller I am just looking for the right answer. Just not sure how to IA's can come up with different version of the truth. Are the AD's that hard to read?

The other notable issue was:

6) Fuel hoses not firesleeved per TSO C-53 a, FAR 23.865 and FAR 23.1181.

Thoughts?


Thanks,
Justin

Justin, what you are describing are service bulletins and not AD's. Compliance of Service Bulletins (SB's) are not mandatory in most cases unless you are operating the aircraft commercially or they are cited in an AD. The aircraft owner is correct with everything he has told you that you posted here. Fire sleeve is now required on modified aircraft or newer aircraft as an accepted method according to the Mechanics part 43-13. It is not required on our old aircraft. Sometimes a SB is the bases for an AD so you do need to read them and comply with them if they are referenced in an AD. The question I have is, Have the AD's been complied with on the Mags and logged? Your mechanic that is doing the prebuy is trying to protect your wallet which is good but there is a point where you must open it and your mechanic is not allowing it to happen. Doug

Thanks Doug for the quick reply.

I apologize for having to ask for quick help but just didn't get this pre-buy info until last night (long story) and I am supposed to fly out today to pickup the plane and I am way over my head here.

From what I understand and from the inspection notes that the AD has not been compiled with? Is that not what bullets 1 and 2 below are saying or they saying something else? Just talked to the owner and he says the plane is airworthy and he's not responsible for the inspection as it is optional.

Justin

juredd1 wrote:Thanks Doug for the quick reply.

I apologize for having to ask for quick help but just didn't get this pre-buy info until last night (long story) and I am supposed to fly out today to pickup the plane and I am way over my head here.

From what I understand and from the inspection notes that the AD has not been compiled with? Is that not what bullets 1 and 2 below are saying or they saying something else? Just talked to the owner and he says the plane is airworthy and he's not responsible for the inspection as it is optional.

Justin

Justin,
Please slow down. No good deal ever came from rushing. I do not know what kind of mags you have. AD's are specific to the mags. Now. The first thing is, a prebuy is an inspection to tell the perspective buyer of any significant deficiencies that need to be resolved. This inspection is not an annual inspection unless the buyer agrees before hand that an annual inspection is to be done with your Airworthiness Inspector/Mechanic. So since I am not familiar with your situation it sounds like the AI is very familiar with commercial operations and not necessarily private aircraft ownership. Is the aircraft currently in annual? If it is, it is legal to fly.
If it is out of annual then you are bound by who ever is going to sign off the annual. Please call me if you prefer to talk. This doesnt sound like a deal breaker. 7024994989 Doug

to be brief, the 500 hour inspection of the internal parts of the bendix mag is a service bulletin, not required to be complied with in part 91. The 500 hour AD on Bendix mag couplings is a required AD at 500 hours. if it has not been complied with, the aircraft is in violation of part 39 of the FARs, and is unairworthy.
Does the aircraft have Bendix Mags?
AS noted above, fire sleeves are not required, they are a good idea, but not required.

Doug, I disagree that a "prebuy" is not supposed to check for airworthiness items (if that indeed was your intended meaning.) Why would anyone who wants an airplane to fly NOT want to know the airworthiness of the airplane? (And, on that matter, the ONLY inspection which legally binds the deal as regards airworthiness....is an annual inspection. There is NO such thing as a "pre buy" inspection in the FAA definitions.

Tom nails it... although the SB isn't required, ...the AD is. If the AD requires compliance with the SB....then it becomes required action. (The likely problem is that rivetted impulse couplings can come apart and kill your engine. Rivetted couplings must be inspected every 500 hours. Check the records....are rivetted couplings installed?)

In any case, if you buy the plane and find the work is necessary, the inspection alone is only a couple hours labor.

gahorn wrote:Doug, I disagree that a "prebuy" is not supposed to check for airworthiness items (if that indeed was your intended meaning.) Why would anyone who wants an airplane to fly NOT want to know the airworthiness of the airplane? (And, on that matter, the ONLY inspection which legally binds the deal as regards airworthiness....is an annual inspection. There is NO such thing as a "pre buy" inspection in the FAA definitions.

Tom nails it... although the SB isn't required, ...the AD is. If the AD requires compliance with the SB....then it becomes required action. (The likely problem is that rivetted impulse couplings can come apart and kill your engine. Rivetted couplings must be inspected every 500 hours. Check the records....are rivetted couplings installed?)

In any case, if you buy the plane and find the work is necessary, the inspection alone is only a couple hours labor.

George, you and I must speak to kinds of English. Where did I say the above?

juredd1 wrote:.... Now. The first thing is, a prebuy is an inspection to tell the perspective buyer of any significant deficiencies that need to be resolved. This inspection is not an annual inspection .... Doug

The above post led me to clarify the point, (the difference between a "prebuy" and an "annual" needed clarification) ...and since there was room for misunderstanding, that is why I included in my remarks: "if that indeed was your intended meaning." We're likely intending the same message.

Thank you for the additional information guys.

Yes it is Bendix Mags. Bendix S-20 is what he has highlighted in the SB. Ok I get the SB and that is all that my guy sent me for review. I think you all are saying there is an AD that references the SB and thus it means it's it violation of part 39. Ok I do see where he listed the AD, just missed the obvious, so when I look at the AD 2005-12-06 I see the MSB645 listed but don't see the 634-B listed. I am trying to read this and make some sense of it but I also see what I think the seller is trying to say and that is that it only applies to this engines listed below.

Lycoming AEIO–540,
HIO–540, IO-540, 0–
540, and TIO–540
series engines

George,
I understand it's only a couple hours labor but if something is found during the inspection would that be part of the seller responsibility if found while he still owned it or does just performing the inspection meeting the requirements?


Justin

juredd1 wrote:I am trying to read this and make some sense of it but I also see what I think the seller is trying to say and that is that it only applies to this engines listed below.

Lycoming AEIO–540,
HIO–540, IO-540, 0–
540, and TIO–540
series engines

George,
I understand it's only a couple hours labor but if something is found during the inspection would that be part of the seller responsibility if found while he still owned it or does just performing the inspection meeting the requirements?

It's true that AD 2005-12-06 only applies to those engines.

Anything found during an inspection belongs to the owner! Do not agree to buy an airplane until all discrepancies are negotiated. Normally you'd have a purchase agreement that specifies that all problems found during the inspection shall be fixed by the seller, cause the sale price to be adjusted, agreed to be accepted by the buyer, or be valid cause for the buyer to cancel the deal. You will find plenty of stuff after buying an airplane, so don't be too eager or generous during the inspection. Don't be a unreasonable, but an airplane being presented as airworthy should be better than just barely airworthy.

In my opinion, a 500-hour magneto inspection is considered conventional good practice and the seller should either have it performed before sale or adjust the airplane sale price by half of the inspection cost.

The instant you buy that airplane all its problems belong to you. Don't rush!

juredd1 wrote:...
George,
I understand it's only a couple hours labor but if something is found during the inspection would that be part of the seller responsibility if found while he still owned it or does just performing the inspection meeting the requirements?


Justin

That depends. Did you enter into an agreement specifying that? Or did you agree upon a price based upon the airworthiness of the aircraft? Or did you simply tell the guy "I'm interested and would like my mechanic to look at it"....assuming you guys would come to some agreement later on?
See what I mean, when I say "That depends."...????

In the absence of a letter of Intent to Buy or Offer to Purchase spelling out those details and setting a purchase-price....it seems like you and the seller need to meet somewhere in the middle. Perhaps, if you can convince him and his IA that something was overlooked last annual, ...his IA might agree to perform the inspection gratis.
But whatever you decide, remember that if you like the airplane otherwise and the price is reasonable otherwise... then whats another $200 in labor? (The problem will be if the mags/impluse couplings fail inspection. IN which case you guys might agree to split the parts...or you may get him to buy the parts, etc etc. It's whatever you guys can gentlemanly agree to.)

I don't want to steal this thread, but this seems a good opportunity to ask for clarification on the Bendix Mag 500 hour situation. If I follow correctly, there is an AD requiring our Bendix mags to be inspected at 500 hours and obviously any issues discovered during the inspection would be required to be fixed (repaired/replaced/etc) before the aircraft could be returned to service as airworthy. Do I understand correctly that the AD calls only for an inspection at 500 hours or do Bendix mags that have reached 500 hours in service require an "overhaul"? I ask because I am approximately 34 hours short of 500 hours since my mags were last inspected which resulted in a number of components, including a case half having to be replaced. As I recall that previous 500 hour "inspection" cost me somewhere between $700-$1000.

170C wrote: If I follow correctly, there is an AD requiring our Bendix mags to be inspected at 500 hours ...

No Frank, you are not following correctly. There is no AD against Bendix mags found in engines in our aircraft. There use to be such an AD but it has been superseded with one eliminating the inspections once required.

That doesn't mean it's not a good idea to have your mags inspected for condition including condition of things never required of the old AD.

Thanks Bruce and I agree that having the mags checked after 500 hours of service is a good thing to do. The fact that it isn't an absolute requirement provides some relief if one is up against a 500 hour time.

The Bendix S-20 mag has these ADs issued all of you should check to see which applies to your mags, you must read the ADs to see application by date, time, S/N, and label color.

96-12-07….. 94-06-09…..94-01-03 R2…… 82-20-01…. 78-09-7 R3….. 73-07-04

These mags have had a rash of problems over the years, coils, rotor, bearings, impulse couplings, If you still have these old mags and they give you any reason to pull them I suggest you upgrade to the TCM overhauled mag ignition kit. and they are now giving a $150 core for old slicks, which have ADs too.

see the TCM web page you can now order direct from TCM with no middle man mark up.