I own a 54 170B and am looking for a place to buy a winterization kit or find templates for building a set. Any ideas. I have one for the Nose Cowl vent but not for the Cowl Grill.
Also any comments on how well they work and are they worth the effort.
Winterization Kit
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Winterizaton Kit
I have the book but I was concerned about the dimensions. I can trace the cowling to get the dimensions but I dont know how much of the opening to cover. Any suggestions?
Also what should I make it out of? Aluminum? what thickness?
Thanks
Also what should I make it out of? Aluminum? what thickness?
Thanks
The winter kits need to be used with care and planning. Since they tune the airflow into the cowling for cruise flight, ground and climb will tend to overheat the engine. If flying on skis or a climb prop the airflow is reduced due to the slower airspeed, and you may need larger holes in the winter kit. The size of the holes may also need to be adjusted for air temp changes, one size hole for 10 and another for -10 etc. Duct tape works very well for this. Also remember the air temp at your cruise altitude maybe higher then the ground temp, you may find your engine overheating.
ken
ken
Winterizing kit
Your comments are right on the mark, Ken.
I used duck tape liberally during last season...adding and subtracting as necessary. With a close eye on operating temps, especially oil temp at cruise, I was able to come up with a good idea of just how much restriction I needed. There is a huge difference between +30F and -20F. Here in Minnesota we see them all. After much experimenting, I stumbled across a nice solution. I had a large heavy (fairly stiff) plastic sheet used for holding up large lawn bags for bagging leaves in the fall. I cut a piece that slides under the forward cowling screws across the top of the cowling, trimmed out a inverted "U" shape that runs down around the spinner with long side pieces about 4" wide. It looks like a moustache with long sides. During testing I taped the side pieces down to the lower front of the cowling. Later, when I was satisfied with the results, I put small screws in the lower cowling. This works in the +25F to +5F range quite well (which seems to be 80% of the time its below freezing). When it gets really cold I add a little extra duck tape. I try to keep the oil temp in the 180-200F range all the time. In very extreme conditions the ski pilots around here will put a strip of duck tape across the face of the oil cooler as well. This can be adjusted in very small increments to fine tune in very cold weather. I find that its not necessary 95% of the time.
So far this system seems to work well and keeps the engine in the normal temp range, and gives you better cabin heat as a side benefit.
After my first ski season I realized just how impotent the cabin heating system in my 51 "A" model was and was able to make adjustments there as well. It smokes me out of the cockpit now.
Think Snow!
N170GA
Neil
I used duck tape liberally during last season...adding and subtracting as necessary. With a close eye on operating temps, especially oil temp at cruise, I was able to come up with a good idea of just how much restriction I needed. There is a huge difference between +30F and -20F. Here in Minnesota we see them all. After much experimenting, I stumbled across a nice solution. I had a large heavy (fairly stiff) plastic sheet used for holding up large lawn bags for bagging leaves in the fall. I cut a piece that slides under the forward cowling screws across the top of the cowling, trimmed out a inverted "U" shape that runs down around the spinner with long side pieces about 4" wide. It looks like a moustache with long sides. During testing I taped the side pieces down to the lower front of the cowling. Later, when I was satisfied with the results, I put small screws in the lower cowling. This works in the +25F to +5F range quite well (which seems to be 80% of the time its below freezing). When it gets really cold I add a little extra duck tape. I try to keep the oil temp in the 180-200F range all the time. In very extreme conditions the ski pilots around here will put a strip of duck tape across the face of the oil cooler as well. This can be adjusted in very small increments to fine tune in very cold weather. I find that its not necessary 95% of the time.
So far this system seems to work well and keeps the engine in the normal temp range, and gives you better cabin heat as a side benefit.
After my first ski season I realized just how impotent the cabin heating system in my 51 "A" model was and was able to make adjustments there as well. It smokes me out of the cockpit now.
Think Snow!N170GA
Neil
-
Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10320
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Re: Winterizing kit
Neil please elaborate (in a post with a new header) on what mods you made to "smoke" you out of the cockpit. I'm sure all of us with inadequate heat would like to know.N170GA wrote: After my first ski season I realized just how impotent the cabin heating system in my 51 "A" model was and was able to make adjustments there as well. It smokes me out of the cockpit now.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Winterization
Bruce,
I'd be happy to.
Seems like this thread will do fine since it's pretty short. Hope my solution won't be too long, but it took a while to come up with a plan. Here goes... but first the disclaimer
This work comes under the category of minor modifications!
First, I have the Lyc O-360 conversion, so a little interpolation may be required for other power plants.
I had the same 1 1/2 " scat like everyone else to dribble heat onto my rudder pedals. The muffler shroud had two outlets...a 1 1/2" and a 2 1/2". The 2 1/2" went to carb heat. Before the last annual I discovered the muffler was totally blown out and needed replacement. I sent it to a place in Minneapolis that rebuilds/manufactures mufflers and had it "rebuilt". I put the word in parenthesis because literally the only part of the old muffler you get back is the decal! This company originally only rebuilt mufflers, but has recently been approved for manufacture as well. The cost is reasonable I think. Mine was $750 for muffler and risers. They do a great job. The new stuff bolts right on including the risers and was a perfect fit. The name of the shop is Aerospace Welding, and the number is 800-597-4315 or 952-890-1511 for local calls. With the "new" muffler, the engine heat was much better.
The second part of the plan was to get an additional source for the cabin. I noticed a C177 in the shop that I frequent that had the very same O-360 in it, but a much different set up for heat. The Cardinal had a 2" heat muff on one exhaust stack for carb heat. I visited Wentworth Aviation in Minneapolis, dug through a pile of muffs and found an identical muff for (as I remember) about $20. I also found a firewall cabin heat box with a 2 1/2" opening (don't know what a/c that came from). Now I had the parts I needed.
1. The old 1 1/2" heat source was moved to the passenger side and mounted below the battery box. It comes out right behind the rudder pedals. There was some modification required to the firewall heat box flange to get it to fit along side the stiffening angle bar on the firewall in that location. I installed a new cable for controlling this box.
2. The newly acquired heat muff for the exhaust stack was installed and scat run from the muff to the carb heat box with a 1/2" reducer. This actually resulted in a much shorter run than on the original set up and I think better heat (the resulting run shortened the scat from 30" to 15"). Since the identical arrangement was utilized on the Cardinal, I didn't have much difficulty in convincing my A/P to go along with it.
3. The new 2 1/2" heat box was placed on the firewall in the same spot (pilots feet) that the old 1 1/2" dribbler was located. The new box incidently looks identical to the old circular "dribbler" box but with the much larger opening. The muffler shroud 2 1/2" opening now goes to the box at the pilots feet. I'm not an engineer, so I can't tell you how much the increase in hot air is using a fancy formula, but I can tell you that down to freezing, I use the heat on the passenger side for general low volume heating. The passenger (my girlfriend) loves it. She is always freezing (sound familliar..but that's a whole nuther topic).
When it gets colder I crack open the new and improved pilot side heat! When the beads of sweat break out on my forehead...I back her off a notch.
4. I also made a little scoup about 1 1/2" X 3" from aluminum sheet that sets over the round hole in the flashing by the cowling opening to the left (pilot's left) of the spinner. This is small enough in height that it doesn't restrict cooling to the cylinders, but just enough to provide a little "ram air" for the shroud. No formula here either, but it seems to make sense to me anyway.
Well, that's the long and short of it. I'll be waiting for all the "shots across the bow" on this one. Definition of "minor" you know. It really makes the cold weather stuff much more tolerable. It's a shame not to fly all year round. You boys up in AK will like this, even though your weather in Anchorage is frequently warmer than ours is on the Northern Plains.
Think Snow!
N170GA
Neil
I'd be happy to.
Seems like this thread will do fine since it's pretty short. Hope my solution won't be too long, but it took a while to come up with a plan. Here goes... but first the disclaimer
This work comes under the category of minor modifications!
First, I have the Lyc O-360 conversion, so a little interpolation may be required for other power plants.
I had the same 1 1/2 " scat like everyone else to dribble heat onto my rudder pedals. The muffler shroud had two outlets...a 1 1/2" and a 2 1/2". The 2 1/2" went to carb heat. Before the last annual I discovered the muffler was totally blown out and needed replacement. I sent it to a place in Minneapolis that rebuilds/manufactures mufflers and had it "rebuilt". I put the word in parenthesis because literally the only part of the old muffler you get back is the decal! This company originally only rebuilt mufflers, but has recently been approved for manufacture as well. The cost is reasonable I think. Mine was $750 for muffler and risers. They do a great job. The new stuff bolts right on including the risers and was a perfect fit. The name of the shop is Aerospace Welding, and the number is 800-597-4315 or 952-890-1511 for local calls. With the "new" muffler, the engine heat was much better.
The second part of the plan was to get an additional source for the cabin. I noticed a C177 in the shop that I frequent that had the very same O-360 in it, but a much different set up for heat. The Cardinal had a 2" heat muff on one exhaust stack for carb heat. I visited Wentworth Aviation in Minneapolis, dug through a pile of muffs and found an identical muff for (as I remember) about $20. I also found a firewall cabin heat box with a 2 1/2" opening (don't know what a/c that came from). Now I had the parts I needed.
1. The old 1 1/2" heat source was moved to the passenger side and mounted below the battery box. It comes out right behind the rudder pedals. There was some modification required to the firewall heat box flange to get it to fit along side the stiffening angle bar on the firewall in that location. I installed a new cable for controlling this box.
2. The newly acquired heat muff for the exhaust stack was installed and scat run from the muff to the carb heat box with a 1/2" reducer. This actually resulted in a much shorter run than on the original set up and I think better heat (the resulting run shortened the scat from 30" to 15"). Since the identical arrangement was utilized on the Cardinal, I didn't have much difficulty in convincing my A/P to go along with it.
3. The new 2 1/2" heat box was placed on the firewall in the same spot (pilots feet) that the old 1 1/2" dribbler was located. The new box incidently looks identical to the old circular "dribbler" box but with the much larger opening. The muffler shroud 2 1/2" opening now goes to the box at the pilots feet. I'm not an engineer, so I can't tell you how much the increase in hot air is using a fancy formula, but I can tell you that down to freezing, I use the heat on the passenger side for general low volume heating. The passenger (my girlfriend) loves it. She is always freezing (sound familliar..but that's a whole nuther topic).
When it gets colder I crack open the new and improved pilot side heat! When the beads of sweat break out on my forehead...I back her off a notch. 4. I also made a little scoup about 1 1/2" X 3" from aluminum sheet that sets over the round hole in the flashing by the cowling opening to the left (pilot's left) of the spinner. This is small enough in height that it doesn't restrict cooling to the cylinders, but just enough to provide a little "ram air" for the shroud. No formula here either, but it seems to make sense to me anyway.
Well, that's the long and short of it. I'll be waiting for all the "shots across the bow" on this one. Definition of "minor" you know. It really makes the cold weather stuff much more tolerable. It's a shame not to fly all year round. You boys up in AK will like this, even though your weather in Anchorage is frequently warmer than ours is on the Northern Plains.
Think Snow!
N170GA
Neil
-
Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10320
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
First I think the 0-360 heat/muffler makes more heat than the 2 Hanlon Wilson mufflers.
Second the larger heater valve was used on early '60s 150s and maybe 172s. I have the part numbers somewhere.
It is interesting to note that you installed the smaller valve on the passenger side as I have though about doing just his for a few years now. I would also install the larger valve in place of the original. having the 2 Hanlon Wilson mufflers I had planned on pluming the vents as follows.
First I found a Y connection which was used on early 170s with the pancake mufflers. This Y really which is 1 1/2" has two inlets and two outlets, one outlet is connected directly to the carb box for carb heat and it has a flapper in case of blow back when carb heat is on. The second is for the heat. I'd block off the left inlet on the Y and connect the right as normal to the right muffler and the outlet to the smaller valve on the passenger side. I'd then change the left muff to the larger scat size to match the new heat valve and connect the 2 as is normally done. I'd also change the inlet from the front engine baffle to the muff to the larger size. With this setup I'd hope along with the larger scat on the left side the additional smaller valve on the right would provide adequate heat. I also hoped to get this approved as I was just using two halves of an existing approved design but I've not persued it yet.
Second the larger heater valve was used on early '60s 150s and maybe 172s. I have the part numbers somewhere.
It is interesting to note that you installed the smaller valve on the passenger side as I have though about doing just his for a few years now. I would also install the larger valve in place of the original. having the 2 Hanlon Wilson mufflers I had planned on pluming the vents as follows.
First I found a Y connection which was used on early 170s with the pancake mufflers. This Y really which is 1 1/2" has two inlets and two outlets, one outlet is connected directly to the carb box for carb heat and it has a flapper in case of blow back when carb heat is on. The second is for the heat. I'd block off the left inlet on the Y and connect the right as normal to the right muffler and the outlet to the smaller valve on the passenger side. I'd then change the left muff to the larger scat size to match the new heat valve and connect the 2 as is normally done. I'd also change the inlet from the front engine baffle to the muff to the larger size. With this setup I'd hope along with the larger scat on the left side the additional smaller valve on the right would provide adequate heat. I also hoped to get this approved as I was just using two halves of an existing approved design but I've not persued it yet.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce,
Sounds like a plan. I think, as in my case, the key is volume. Those little "dribblers" (1 1/2" vents) just don't do much. You have to find a way to get volume. Heck, with even a normal amount of infiltration through door seals, wing roots, etc, they don't hardly break even!
Good luck with the project. Let me know how you do.
Neil
Sounds like a plan. I think, as in my case, the key is volume. Those little "dribblers" (1 1/2" vents) just don't do much. You have to find a way to get volume. Heck, with even a normal amount of infiltration through door seals, wing roots, etc, they don't hardly break even!
Good luck with the project. Let me know how you do.
Neil
All I get with my ragwing is the smell of heat
Vic
N2609V
48 Ragwing
A Lanber 2097 12 gauge O/U Sporting
A happy go lucky Ruger Red label 20 ga
12N Aeroflex
Andover NJ
http://www.sandhillaviation.com
" Air is free untill you have to move it" BB.
N2609V
48 Ragwing
A Lanber 2097 12 gauge O/U Sporting
A happy go lucky Ruger Red label 20 ga
12N Aeroflex
Andover NJ
http://www.sandhillaviation.com
" Air is free untill you have to move it" BB.
Vic,
That's all I used to get with mine too. I think there is a general concensus that these engines just don't produce enough heat. I think the engines produce just as much heat as any other engine. It's the dewlivery system that is inefficient (read non-existant). Try this...take off your shoe and hold your toes over the little vent you have. In a very short time your toes will be PLENTY hot! My left shin used to get very hot and everything else would freeze.
Granted...there are some things you can check out. In my case the muffler was blown out so hot gasses didn't spend any time in the exhaust system. I also found that the baffles in the shround were missing or bent so the system flow was bad. You also have the issue of cold air coming into the cabin from outside sources. These old airplanes are leaky! That single little "dribbler" 1 1/2" scat can't cope with all that heat loss!
The BIG issue is volume. My system works very well now, but I increased the volume of hot air by at least 4X. That's what made the difference. Think about it...the old system was sending Twice as much hot air into a 3" x 6" carb heat box as it was sending to heat a 3' x 6' cabin!
Neil
That's all I used to get with mine too. I think there is a general concensus that these engines just don't produce enough heat. I think the engines produce just as much heat as any other engine. It's the dewlivery system that is inefficient (read non-existant).
Try this...take off your shoe and hold your toes over the little vent you have. In a very short time your toes will be PLENTY hot! My left shin used to get very hot and everything else would freeze.Granted...there are some things you can check out. In my case the muffler was blown out so hot gasses didn't spend any time in the exhaust system. I also found that the baffles in the shround were missing or bent so the system flow was bad. You also have the issue of cold air coming into the cabin from outside sources. These old airplanes are leaky! That single little "dribbler" 1 1/2" scat can't cope with all that heat loss!
The BIG issue is volume. My system works very well now, but I increased the volume of hot air by at least 4X. That's what made the difference. Think about it...the old system was sending Twice as much hot air into a 3" x 6" carb heat box as it was sending to heat a 3' x 6' cabin!
Neil
-
zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
My recent cabin heat mod goes well with my installation of a single RH rear jump seat. Awhile ago,I removed the rotating beacon from the cabin top,leaving a hole which gave me an idea.......
I installed a small wood-burning stove in the baggage compartment,ran the flue (type B metalbestos) up & out the hole from the old rotating beacon. With the single jump seat,it's really easy to feed wood into the stove,especially if the stove-tender is riding in back. Only trouble is,my airport guide doesn't list airports where firewood is sold. When I pack along enough wood for a long trip I don't have enough room or useful load left for much in the way of baggage.
Works almost as good as an airshow smoke system if I throw some oily rags in the stove just before a "low and over"........
Eric
I installed a small wood-burning stove in the baggage compartment,ran the flue (type B metalbestos) up & out the hole from the old rotating beacon. With the single jump seat,it's really easy to feed wood into the stove,especially if the stove-tender is riding in back. Only trouble is,my airport guide doesn't list airports where firewood is sold. When I pack along enough wood for a long trip I don't have enough room or useful load left for much in the way of baggage.
Works almost as good as an airshow smoke system if I throw some oily rags in the stove just before a "low and over"........
Eric
-
Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
Firewood problem
Why not just toss the wood burning stove out (not while in the air!) & replace with a good propane burning heater. A half dozen or so Coleman type bottles will last on quite a long trip. You can still use the hole where the rotating beacon was as a flu to rid the bad fumes!!!!! Don't know what altitude does to gas pressure in the propane bottles. If using the small bottles is a problem I have a 40+ yr old propane bottle (5 gallon) that still has fuel in it (they won't refill it now days) I could let go for a few $$ and you would have a long flight of heat.