Float Kit

N2830C · Post by **N2830C** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:09 am

Im considering installing a float kit on my 54 170B. Ive looked at the Univair parts catalog and it appears the only structural upgrades are around the area where the rear float attachments go. It includes beefing up the the bulkhead, installing some doublers and the attaching block. The beefing up the bulkhead takes quite a few parts, angles, reinforcing plates etc.

Ive priced this out with one of the local shops and they said they are familiar with the installation and could get all the parts in a "Service Kit". Additionally they would install a V brace and lifting eyes. All this for around $4500. This did not include rigging water rudders.

Ive talk with a couple friends of mine with 180s and 185s and they have cautioned me to ensure that this was all that was needed as this did not sound right and talk with people who have done this. hence here I am talking to the experts. What am I missing? Is there other structural mods that need to be done? What pitfalls do I need to look out for?

Im assuming I can purchase a set off Floats rigged for a 170B and get the other parts I need, except for rigging water rudders.

Thanks for your help
Craig

mit · Post by **mit** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:56 am

Whats in the parts book, is all that is needed. What is their approval process for the V-brace? I had a complete kit that I put together over several years, sold it for 1,500 about 10 years ago. 180-185 depending on model year have a lot more stuff added for a float kit. Do you have the C-145? If you do you may be very disapointed in the performance.

N2830C · Post by **N2830C** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:10 am

I do have an O-300. Same difference though. What kind of performace to you think itll have? Take off run/time off the water. What would you guess for an O-360?

As for the V-Brace I was surprised when he mentioned the kit included it as I didnt think Cessna put a V-brace in with the 170 float kit. I will have to talk more with the folks that gave me that estimate.

Craig

Post by **GAHorn** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:39 pm

The V-brace was not factory, but aftermarket and is likely installed under STC (Atlee Dodge has a v-brace that's STC'd. Their stainless one won't interfere with the compass (or so I'm told.) I'm not really floatplane smart, but I've flown in George Courtney's C-145 powered 170. I thought things were going fine as we lifted off the lake here at Marble Falls and climbed out for a local sightseeing tour. He later told me he was about to abort the takeoff for taking too long. (It took about 1.5 minutes I'd guess, with one float lifting before the other.) It flew with a "bottom heavy" feel, sorta pendulous. But Man! Was it fun!
(That takeoff was full of fuel, two 200 pound guys, and maybe 100 lbs of junk in the back, density altitude about 3,000.) It flew around indicating about 95 mph.

mit · Post by **mit** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 3:15 am

N2830C wrote:I do have an O-300. Same difference though. What kind of performace to you think itll have? Take off run/time off the water. What would you guess for an O-360?

As for the V-Brace I was surprised when he mentioned the kit included it as I didnt think Cessna put a V-brace in with the 170 float kit. I will have to talk more with the folks that gave me that estimate.

Craig

My legal useful load with full fuel is 335 lbs so you would be over gross with 2, 200 pounders on board. I use 3/4 tanks as full most of the time. Remember the gross weight on floats is 2106. My E/W is 1519 on floats. I have about 1000 hrs of 170 time between two different planes. 500 hrs of float time on my 54 with the 145, and have worked it hard. I have flown over 40 external loads with up to 16 ft lumber, prehung doors. My only point is that I can tell you that with out the hp you have to watch the weight. They just don't perform very well on floats with only 145 hp.
The 180hp is a much better performer. I would love to convert to the Lycoming or the I0-360 cont. If I only had 30 grand laying around!!! But If I had the money I think I would go to a 180 on floats instead.

hbcroft · Post by **hbcroft** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:07 pm

Tim

What sort of elevation are you usually operating from? If you have managed to put 500 hours on floats with the 145 hp I suppose that is not too bad!

How much space/time to you need to be airborne at a 1000 feet asl in a normal Alaskan summer day with a normal load (no passenger, full fuel)?

Bruno
Ft Smith, NWT

N2830C · Post by **N2830C** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:47 am

I talked with one guy who was selling his 170b and he said performance was ok if you kept it light. His plane had a bare VFR panel no interior expept seats, and what ever mods he could get to save weight(ie light starter, battery etc).

But as I said he was selling his and buying a Cherokee Six for more performance.

I looked at edos guide book and all they list for performance is a climb rate of 585 fpm(170 w/145HP). This definitely puts it in the low end of performers but I wonder what this comes out as water run. If I had to guess it would be in the 1500-2000ft area(based on comparision with other planes in Edos book). But Ive never flown in a 170 on floats. What do you think am I in the Ball Park?

mrpibb · Post by **mrpibb** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:44 pm

When I was working on my A&P years back I took a summer job at a seaplane base in jersey, we flew Cessna 206's and 172's, the 206 were used for our commuter service to and from Manhattan and also out to points along long island and such. The 172 was used for training and got a chance to fly in it several times. with two people and 3/4 fuel we were at gross weight. we used the Hackensack river which gave us about a 5,000 foot run. On a summer day at about 80 deg we were usually lucky if we got off the water in that distance, usually this resulted at going up river under the bridge and extend our take off run and as long as we were still on the water under the bridge we would not get busted. Now the empty weight was around 1550 and gross was 2300 with the 160 hp lyc. So I imagine the 170 would be less stellar. Our 206's did better we never topped them off with fuel as we had to cram five passengers with weekend luggage, the 206 would usually break water in 3 to 4 thousand feet on all but the really hot high dens alt days.
Our 172 cruised at 95kts and the 206 about 115kts. But one thing it was sure fun, nothing like trying to restart a stubborn hot IO 520 when it stalls and you are drifting down the east river in NY between barges and tugs with passengers asking if this was normal and we would say "yea sure this happens all the time".

Now I probably said nothing of relevance, but I just was reliving my early days of aviation, just couldn't resist.

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:42 am

The best resource for this info is the AFM and the Owner's Manuals which gives seaplane takeoff and cruise performance.
At SL, standard day, 2106 gross wt. the seaplane needs 3020 to clear 50 ft. The water run is approx 60% of that distance. The normal rate of climb for those conditions are 585 fpm. The landing distance over 50 ft is 1525.
For other conditions, get the Owner's Manual and look it up or PM me with conditions and I'll tell you what the book says (once or twice, then I'll make you get the book.)

mit · Post by **mit** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:11 am

Here is an email I got from a guy that was reading this thread.

Tim, my name is Glenn . I used to be a member of the 170 club. I got on the sight last night and saw an interest in people wanting to install a float kit in there 170s. I installed one in my plane about 2 years ago. I cannot contact any of the interested parties cuz im not in the club. Ive got drawings i bought from cessna for the whole installation, original bulkheads i bought for a pattern etc. Maybe you could pass this info on, id be glad to help anyone looking to install the kit.I can be reached at cortez170@yahoo.com, dont use the cox.net as i dont use it at all, thanks, Glenn.

Me again...
The Float pond at FAI is 5400' long and I have used it all before. With full Fuel and just myself on an 80 F day I can be airbone in about 2000' I have never landed at or taken off above 1000' above sea level. It is hard enough just to climb to 5000' on floats let alone takeoff. I pray for wind whenever I takeoff! I have been into some tight places with my plane I, have also been upside down in it.

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:34 pm

Almost one third of the participants of this forum are not members of the "club",...(meaning the Association, of course.) There is no reason any non-member cannot contact me or any other member of TIC170A. In fact, about 1/3rd of all inquiries I receive privately regarding maintenance issues are from non members. I always do my best to help them because I consider it good public relations for TIC170A.
Tell your friend to contact me either through this forum via a Private Message (PM) or thru my published email address on the Flypaper. gahorn146ys at hotmail. I'll be very happy to help him any way I can, and we'd certainly consider it a good-neighbor act of helpfulness if he wishes to contribute any documentation that may help other 170 owners.
George Horn, Parts/Mx TIC170A