Performance Chart Altitudes

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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4-Shipp
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Performance Chart Altitudes

Post by 4-Shipp »

Feel kind of silly asking as I feel I should know this, but...are the altitudes listed in the take off and landing distance charts actual altitudes or density altitudes? I've never paid that much attention to them as I've had few opportunities on short fields to validate the charts myself. I always assumed they were density altitudes, but upon reviewing them this evening I noticed the heading was simply "Altitude" and the different temperatures should take into account the changing density altitudes. I just have a photocopy of the table, the rest of the book (possibly with the answer) is in the plane.

Also, does anyone have any hard information on effect of runway slope on TO performance (yes, I know that downhill helps and uphill hurts, but not how much! :wink:). We just purchased 23 acres of wheat field that is relatively flat and will accomodate approx 1750-1800 feet of sod strip. There is a bit of a grade that has not been measured yet and I am eager to see how accomodating it will be for 9CP. Thanks.

Bruce
Bruce Shipp
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
Dave Clark
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Post by Dave Clark »

Hi Bruce

I think it's actual field elevation but my book is also at the airplane.

At our Stuart Island strip there is an 11 foot drop over 2,000 feet of length. I don't have any measured data for you but I can tell you for certain it makes a difference, even with the Lycoming. No wind maybe 3-400 feet longer in takeoff roll with the Continental to go uphill. Once you're off then you have to outclimb the hill also. It also lengthens the landings, especially three point. I favor a wheel landing downhill with braking when the mains are pinned but of course I'm only landing that direction when there's a lot of wind so it's normally a wheel landing anyway and more effective runway length due to the wind.

A couple in a 170 died in about 1976 at a dirt strip near Medford when they decided to takeoff uphill due to the wind coming downhill. I just about bit it in a Lake Amphib a few years after that in Kerrville taking off uphill into the wind. Fortunately a gentle left turn just off the ground put me going downhill and out over the golf course. I don't know how others feel but I think uphill into the wind is a suckers trap.
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

Bruce asked...."are the altitudes listed in the take off and landing distance charts actual altitudes or density altitudes?"

The TO/Landing data is corrected to density altitudes by the temperature columns. To find a standard day (SL/59F) you'd be off by 1-degree... 8O
when you use the SL altitude and the 60F column. All the other columns correct for density. (And just to dot the "i" and cross the "t"....the altitude column is Pressure Altitude. Obtain PA by setting your alitimeter to 29.92 and reading the indicated altitude. Don't forget to reset it back to local baro. press. or field elevation before departure.)

Notice also the comment: "Performance figures are for zero wind velocity and hard surface level runway. Speeds are true indicated airspeeds."

According only to my faulty memory (from a factory demo pilot's fam. course I once took when I was with British Aerospace).... increase TO ground-run by10% for 2% uphill gradient and 20% for 3% uphill gradient. Increase TO ground run by 10% for "short, firm turf". (whatever that means.) So a turf rwy with a 2% uphill gradient would add 20% according to the planning data that BAe issued us. There were appropriate disclaimers about accuracy.
Uphill gradients were treated as obstacles for purposes of climb. Downhill gradients were not adjusted for any purpose except climb. (TO climb gradient charts were consulted for obstacle clearance. But a caution existed in that obstacle clearance had to be computed from the beginning of TO roll... ...not from end of TO... an important difference that consisted not only of the different gradient but also added another 35' to the height of the obstacle, because TO distance was from brake-release to 35' AGL.)
It was always interesting to me that a headwind could not easily overcome a TO distance limitation...but could an obstacle clearance limitation. I later found out that was because obstacle clearance was based upon climb gradient charts which in turn, were based upon air-distance travelled....not actual distance. (In other words, climb gradient charts were adjusted for wind. This British method may be a variation from U.S.-published methods. I don't know, but there were many such minor differences. I always found the British data more detailed and possibly more accurate than U.S. mfr'r data (which usually just published the most restrictive condition and let any minor advantages go unrecognized.)
I was suspicious of the C-170 published data at first, but I've since realized it's surprisingly accurate for the average condition.
Hope this helped.
rudymantel
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Post by rudymantel »

George, your message reminded me of the fairly complicated British Performance "A" (also "B" and "C") exams required for Commercial and ATP licensing that we had in Jamaica. As I recall you had to apply 50% of the reported headwind component and 150% of the tailwind before entering the very detailed performance graphs, which included slope.
I suspect the HS-148 performance charts were similar.
Rudy
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

Yeah, a lot of their data defied logic until someone with the Queen's accent explained it. :wink:
An example I recall was that accelerate/stop distance did not need to be calculated in slush. It took a bit of convincing when/before I realized they were only computing accelerate/GO distances in "reasonably moderate slush" (whatever THAT is!) Reason? Because slush (as opposed to mere ice or water on the rwy) offers such resistance to achieving TO speeds that getting up to V1/Vr is the problem,....not stopping. When aborting a TO...slush actually assists in stopping. 8O
Anyway, after flying various models of their airplanes I was able to compare them to many American, and a few French and German designs. The Brits complicate things considerably with documentation details and their weight seems excessive in most cases,....but their airplanes really handle nicely and their systems are truly dependable, despite complexity. I got to prefer them generically over most U.S. designs and over all the French designs I have flown. (Rube Goldberg had a French father and an English mother, but at least he spoke English.) :wink:
AR Dave
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Post by AR Dave »

Bruce that's awesome, you getting a 1700' grass strip.
I personally like a steep grade.
Landing Uphill is soo easy with no roll (drive it right on) and Taking off Downhill gets you off the ground sooner, (nicer on edge of a cliff).
What's the cooridinates? Joe & I'll give it a test! :)

170B - male
4-Shipp
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Post by 4-Shipp »

Thanks, Dave.
The strip is most likely a year down the road. We just signed the contract on the land and will start the house in 4-5 weeks. Lots to do in between.

Unfortunately the land runs up hill to the south, into the prevailing wind. If it ran down hill to the south it would be great. I hope to get the drop measured when the survey is done. That will answer a lot of questions. We are aslo located within Sheppard AFB's class D airspace. I know the airfield manager well so I don't anticipate any show stoppers but it will be interesting to work things out with them as well.
Bruce Shipp
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

Bruce,...knowing where you used to live, I can't believe you are calling the gulches and gullies around SPS "hills". :lol:
Mike Smith
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Post by Mike Smith »

Bruce,
My sister lives in Wichita Falls and my folks live in Burleson. I keep threatening to fly my 170A to Texas instead of airlining it ... so when you get that field up and running, post it here and I'll have one more excuse to "fly my bird" out to Texas (I live in Northern Ca). Man, I do envy you the chance to build your own grass strip ... good luck!! Maybe I could take the angle with my wife that I'd spend more time at home if home were also where my airplane was .... hummmm.
Mike Smith
1950 C-170A
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