PROPS FOR AVCON 180 CONVERSION

buchanan · Post by **buchanan** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:47 am

I'm planning on putting my 170-B with a 180hp AVCON conversion on floats. I'm told that the 80 inch prop is "what I need". I'd like to know what props are STC'd or TC'd with this AVCON conversion. I'd like the Prop numbers, both CS and Fixed on what you know are approved.

Buck Buchanan, Valier, MT

Post by **GAHorn** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:33 pm

The link to all STC's are at:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... enFrameSet

buchanan · Post by **buchanan** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:27 am

Thanks George,

I tried the STC search with the FAA and the STC I'm looking for did come up but no specific information about props, or anything else for that matter. The STC now belongs to AVCON Conversions at Udall Kansas. I have their phone number and called and got an answering machine. So far they haven't returned my call. I'll keep trying. In the meantime if any members have any info I'd appreciate a post.

Regards, Buck Buchanan, Valier, MT

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:26 am

Buck,is there not a copy of the STC paperwork in your aircraft records? Or is there just a 337 & logbook entry?
I tend to be a little "anal" regarding things like this,but I'm amazed that someone would modify an aircraft via STC (especially a mod as expensive & involved as an engine upgrade) and not retain a copy of the STC that shows all the particulars. Not the only case like this that I've heard about.
I'm no expert,but I would think that only the prop(s) listed in the STC as approved are,well, approved! Maybe someone among us also has the Avcon conversion including the paperwork,and can help Buck out with a copy?

Eric

170C · Post by **170C** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:48 pm

Can't give any advise myself, but just met an interesting gentleman @ Kilgore, TX this past weekend who has a '55 170 (no he isn't a member, but I am working on him) with the 180 Lyc. conversion AND a fixed pitch prop. He might be able to shed some light on the subject. His name is W A Reynolds and lives in Longview, TX. Check with directory assistance and I'll bet this gentleman, who has been flying since 1938, would be of some help.

Dave Clark · Post by **Dave Clark** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:27 pm

Buck

Good luck getting anything out of the folks at Udall. It took me months of phone calls most not returned and then some money to get them to issue a revised STC showing my plane when I bought my FWF. I would strongly recommend noone buy a thing from them as they have a terible reputation for taking your money and not performing.

That said, when I get home January first I'll have a look at my paperwork to try to answer your question. The fixed pitch versions are really lacking in overall performance.

buchanan · Post by **buchanan** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:13 pm

Thanks Guys for the responses,

What my log book shows is in IAW STC *** and references a 337. There is no actual STC in the logs. It was done in 1987.

I'll try AVCON conversions in Udall KS again before we leave for Christmas in Bozeman. I'll also try that fellow in Texas when we get back. He has only been flying 30 years longer than myself.

Happy holidays to all and best regards. Buck

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:04 pm

Do you have all the STCs, 337s, etc in your stack of paperwork? If not, contact the FAA and get a set. It can be had for just a couple bucks on CD or microfiche and will include EVERYTHING that has ever been filed with them for the life of your aircraft. Here's the link:

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraft.asp#co ... aftrecords

Good luck with your search,

Post by **GAHorn** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:45 pm

Like we all need another frustration in our lives, right?

But heres a scenario I've run into on enough airplanes it has become one of my strongest reasons to perform a full annual on an aircraft purchase inspection:
An owner has an airplane with a -D engine in it (or some other seemingly valid mod). The paperwork says "in accordance with STC #123456789, FAA Form 337, dated 10 Oct 1977" or something similar. Sure enough, there in the paperwork is a Form 337, all very neatly filled out.
But either no copy of the STC, or an obviously photo-copied example of one.
And maybe the propeller seems to be something completely unmentioned in the Type Certificate Data Sheet. (So without STC paperwork authorizing that prop, is it legal? Answer: No.)
A letter to OKC requesting the FAA records comes back with a package of poor copies of microfiche records that don't mention a thing about it. The Form 337 in the aircraft logbook records .... is not in the FAA library's copies.
The FAA local FSDO is contacted by the owner or his mechanic and .... the owner is asked to mail them his airplane's Airworthiness certificate...it has been invalidated!
What happened?
30 years ago I had a part-time job as a reserve police officer in a small Texas town. I noticed that certain guys on the force had an integrity-problem that was probably unintentional, but nonetheless it was real. They'd forgotten their job was to enforce the law...and they'd begun to believe they were the law.
Some of the worst-maintained airplanes I've seen were owned by A&P mechanics with the same default mentality. (Apologies to the vast majority who are decidedly not in that group!) An A&P might alter his personal airplane and either fail to document it, or he may "dress up" the logbooks to fit the condition of the airplane. (A C-175 a friend once bought had been owned by an A&P/IA for 30 years, and had the most beautiful 3-ring binders of detailed logbooks I've ever seen. The airplane had over 40 perfectly filled-out 337's. Unfortunately, only 3 of them had ever been legally filed with the FAA...the rest were completely fraudulent, including a claimed prop overhaul which had never been performed and which violated two AD notes!)
The airplanes I've seen with outright fraudulent paperwork were either previously owned by an A&P mechanic who'd decided to perform some modification to his personal airplane and who knew the work would not be acceptable to the Feds because he'd not followed all the rules and protocol....or the airplane been improperly maintained by such a person on behalf of an owner who the mechanic knew was smart enough to know that a Form 337 should be completed on the mod/repair ....so the "mechanic" filled out a Form, and included it in the owner's logbooks....but knowing the Feds would not approve the work, the "mechanic" deliberately did not mail the FAA copy to OKC for the Fed's acceptance! The owner was unwittingly satisfied, but of course the aircraft records were never accepted by the FAA, because the FAA never knew about it!
The airplane flys along until some day, perhaps some subsequent owner or, more likely a diligent A&P/IA notices the defective paperwork during a logbook research activity.
This sort of deception can be either very simple, if perhaps bothersome, to correct (if it's an approved mod that simply didn't have all the i's dotted and t's crossed) or it can be devestating to the aircraft's airworthiness and the owner. If it has been subsequently re-licensed by another unsuspecting IA, it can be pretty troublesome for him with the Feds as well. The Feds are pretty aggressive in pursuit of the last IA who relicensed it,....not necessarily the deceptive one who originally passed off the work. (Explains why diligent IA's are less than willing to perform/sign off annuals on airplanes with questionable paperwork, 'eh?)

Here's a suggestion: Write the FAA/OKC (or go online and do it) to request copies of your aircraft's records, and compare them to the records you have on hand. If the two don't match with regard to 337's, then consult with your A&P-IA to get his recommendations on how to correct the paperwork/aircraft to an acceptable state of airworthiness.
Good luck. I hope you find things in order.

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:46 pm

I was wondering if a copy of the STC in question could be obtained from the FAA? Didn't Avcon (or whoever first developed the STC) have to file a copy when getting the approval?
A few years ago,a friend bought a C-150 with the Avcon O-320 conversion. Same kinda deal with the paperwork,there was no 337--not even a phoney one! Had a copy of the STC itself,turns out it was not applicable to his model 150. He didn't have any luck with contacting Avcon to find out if there were any revisions to the STC to include his particular model 150. He ended up selling the airplane,so I don't know if the paperwork was ever straightened out or not.

Eric

Post by **GAHorn** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:27 pm

Would the U.S. Patent Office give you a license to manufacture a patented product? Of course not, and that's the same scenario with the FAA and STC's. The STC is the property of the STC holder, and even though the FAA had a copy submitted to them for approval recordkeeping, the FAA will not give an owner a copy. It must be obtained directly from the STC holder. (And in most cases the paperwork must be assigned to the specific airframe by the STC holder. Giving you a copy of MY STC paperwork from MY modified aircraft will not be applicable to YOUR airplane. Neither will the parts and records from a wreckage apply to your aircraft. You can't just go buy an oil filter adaptor off a wrecked airplane and install it without further approval basis. A statement of installation in accordance with an STC is not a valid statement unless the STC holder was paid for your particular installation.)

My P-ponk kit was sold for my airplane to it's previous owner under the airframes old N-number. The aircraft serial number is valid still, of course, which keeps it legal. But P-ponk would prefer that I send them $10 for them to re-issue the paperwork under the new N-number, because whenever anyone contacts them about it, they don't have their files arranged according to serial number,...they have them designated according to N-number. Without knowlege of the previous N-number the paperwork (at first glance) appears invalid. Just an illustration of the situation regarding STC's.

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 9:38 pm

Now for a hypothetical situation. Hartzell,Maccauley,or whoever decides that a new or existing propeller would be perfect for a 180-horse 170. Assuming proper engineering data,etc,can they get it approved for a 180-horse converted 170? Or does the original engine-conversion STC holder (Avcon,DelAir,or whoever) have to revise their engine-conversion STC to also include the new prop as being approved under their STC?

Eric

Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:12 pm

The prop manufacturer would get approval on their own. Part of the approval to use the prop would say that in order to use the prop your aircraft would also have to be modified in accordance with what ever STC allowed the engine conversion.

Post by **GAHorn** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:16 pm

The most logical/likely scenario is that the STC holder would add it to the STC. There'd be so small a market for the end result that McCauley, etc. would have little/no interest in it. Even if they did, they'd have to go thru the entire process of STC-ing the entire combination and then it'd be a completely new and different STC,...not an add-on. Many times it's this very situation that causes several STC's for the same engine on the same airframe to be developed by differing persons. (Notice there are several STC's owned by different folks that install Lyc. O-360's on the airplane. There are usually minor differences between them, in fact, according to the SAT FSDO, in most cases it is required that there be a difference before the FAA will consider another STC for the installation. I.E., if you want to own your own STC for an installation, and there's already such an installation already STC'd, the FAA is supposed to protect the original STC-holder from duplication, similarly to a patent. The new application should be sufficiently different to warrant a new STC, or the applicant is to be referred to the present STC holder.)

I suppose it's like WagAero's copy of the Cub. Instead of allowing the Cuby to be built and certified under the Piper TC, it must be sufficiently different to have it's own TC or it must be built as an experimental. (This protects Piper's proprietorship.)
You want to sing "Yesterday" in public and/or sell your rendition for a fee? You must pay the Beatles their royalty.

You want to make minor changes to rhythm, lyrics or melody? If it remotely resembles their work product, you still owe them and/or must have their permission.

buchanan · Post by **buchanan** » Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:42 pm

Thanks again George and Doug,

I've written the Feds. requesting the "paperwork" (337's) etc. I doubt they have on hand or will send me a copy of the AVCON STC. My airplane has been in Montana it's whole life so hopefully the paperwork is as it should be.

I know a fellow who has an AVCON engine and gear conversion STC on a tail-dragger 175. I'm wondering if the same STC applies to the 170? I haven't called him yet to see if he has the full STC. If he does have the full STC and it is applicable to the 170 is it legal for me to copy it and add it to my airplane's paperwork? Hopefully at least it will show what props are legal with that STC on the 175.

I've tried that fellow in Planeview TX but so far I haven't connected yet. I'll keep trying.

As warned, no joy from AVCON in Udall, KS.

Thanks again. This is a cool forum.

Buck Buchanan, Valier, MT

The International Cessna 170 Association

PROPS FOR AVCON 180 CONVERSION

PROPS FOR AVCON 180 CONVERSION

Proper Prop