The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Dear 170 er's
I want to know if anyone has had experience with an overhaul shop owner, his name is Paul Kline? He is in Southern Michigan.
Thanks
Dave

If I am not mistaken, Paul Kline advertises cheap overhauls. At the prices he advertises, you cannot do one anywhere close to right. I overhauled my C145 2 years ago and to follow the Continental overhaul service bulletin(you have to,in order to log it as a major overhaul) I spent over $10,000 in parts and machine work alone. This is with new cylinders,mags, overhauled carb,case and all internal components overhauled. At the price that you can buy new cylinders for today they are the only way to go. You even have to replace all the through bolts per the Continental SB. If you know a good A&P who will work with you and you are somewhat mechanically inclined, do an owner assisted overhaul. I removed the engine, sent all the components out for overhaul, ordered the parts and did all the grunt work(cleaning, painting, baffling repair etc) and my A&P assembled the engine and helped me install it. It was agreat experience and I recommend it to anyone. We did all the work in my hanger. Doing this without your own hanger would be more difficult.

To be fair,most advertised engine overhaul prices do not include accesories--carb,mags,generator,starter,exhaust. Or refurbishing baffling,mount,hoses,etc. That will all add up to easily a couple thousand more.

That's for sure! I paid $16,500 for an overhaul with new ECI cylinders, new B&C push button starter, new mags and overhauled carb. Then new everything firewall forward except prop and battery. I most have spent over $20K, it's hard to figure without the receipt in front of me because I did a lot of other things behind the firewall while the plane was down. Read topic "broken Engine Mount" to see my next adventure.
These 50 plus year old airplanes take a lot more money than they give back. But, don't we love 'em.
Curtis

Thanks for all your input into this large task.
I have been thinking further about a company called Magnum engines in Ohio.
He talks about putting all new parts(as much as possible) including cylinders. I does seem a good way to go. When it is finished it will be up to new specs. and I will have a slim billfold. But considering that if I wait say 5yrs more I am sure the cost might double?? Who knows the price really, only that it will be higher.
I probably will not put more than 50 hr/yr. The airplane then will have 500 SMOH and but still in great condition. I hope.
Any other thought apppreciated.
Dave

I had new ECI steel cylinders installed at my overhaul about 3 years ago. The overhauler's base price quote was including new cylinders. I would definitely go with new at a major overhaul--doesn't cost you that much more by the time you figure cyl OH costs including new valves,etc. Who knows how many hours on all the old cylinders floating around out there.
ECI or Superior? I've been very happy with the ECI's but there's a lot of satisfied Superior customers out there too. Or maybe factory new TCM's?
Talk it over with your overhauler.

Eric

t7275tr wrote:... follow the Continental overhaul service bulletin(you have to,in order to log it as a major overhaul) ... You even have to replace all the through bolts per the Continental SB.

I'm currently overhoualing my engine following the overhaull manual. Where does it say you must replace all the through bolts or what SB says so. I just did a search of TCMs SBs and could find none that talk about replacing the through bolts.

When I did my overhaul, my A&P who helped me, told me that at the last several IA seminars he has been to, the FAA stressed that in order to log it as a major overhaul, you must comply with the engine manufacturers latest bulletin regarding engine overhaul. The bulletin is on the Continental website and the parts replacement list at overhaul includes the through bolts. In addition to the parts that you expect to replace, it also includes mags,starter,alternator, and carb. You can rebuild an engine without doing all of this, but in eyes of the FAA, it is not a major overhaul. It's up to you,but I decided to do it by the book. What the heck, when you are spending $12-14,000, why not spend a couple thousand more and do it all.

I just went back and checked my memory. At http://www.tcmlink.com under bulletins you will find SB97-6. This is the bulletin that outlines the mandatory replacement parts at overhaul.

I think you guys need to read the FAR 43.2

§43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding.

(a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless-

(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and

(2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical data, or in accordance with current standards and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been developed and documented by the holder of the type certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part, process, or appliance approval under §21.305 of this chapter.

(b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a new item, using either new parts or used parts that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved oversized or undersized dimensions.

SEE any where it requires that all SERVICE bulletins are required?

You follow the LATEST version of the Manufactures overhaul manual and that is how it gets signed off

"This engine meets FAR 43.2 for "0" since major."

Is this the classic, regulatory desire vs regulatory standard contradiction? They tell you have to do something only to find its not in the standards for the regulation.

Thank you Tom. I have read 43.2 but not recently.

Your opinion on how far the you have to go please.

If I don't overhaul the accessories such as my carb, starter, generator and mags which have been overhauled less than 500 hours ago but clean and inspect the rest of the engine per the overhaul manual, can I call it a major overhaul as long as I indicate that those items where not inspected.

I would recommend TCM or ECI cylinders. I put new superiors on mine 120 hrs ago and have had one off twice and another off once and I think I've got another one going low. Exhaust valve seating problems every time. The guides/valve clearances are running out for some reason...I think maybe a material incompatability issue. The superior runs greater clearances than the others from the start and this may also be an issue. The first three times were covered under warrenty but it took months to get my money and still waiting (3 months) on the last one. I've heard this same story from several other people also. I've never had a problem with cylinders before in my 23 years of flying and operate the engine by the book. AV gas, marvel mistery oil. frequent flights, proper warm ups, no shock cooling, preheat when neccesary, 20 hr oil changes,etc. etc.

Joe
4518C

An A&P friend of mine told him that two different overhaulers told him that you might as well not even have an O-200 overhaul manual because virtually every procedure in it has been superceded by a TCM service bulletin.
I think that if I was overhauling an engine,I'd want to all the pertinent service bulletins complied with,as well as all the applicable AD's. Whether FAR 43.2 required it or not.

Eric

Tom Downey wrote:I think you guys need to read the FAR 43.2

§43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding.

(a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless-

(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and .........

This whole business about "acceptable to the Administrator" is pretty vague. I would assume the the Administrator (of the FAA,I suppose) would prefer that the overhaul be performed in compliance with all applicable service bulletins as well as the latest overhaul manual,but I'm just guessing.
The logbook entry for my overhaul (done three years ago) sez "performed under good shop conditins and in accordance with Continental Overhaul Manual p/n X30013." Doesn't mention service bulletins--were any applicable SB's complied with? Or even looked at? Also no indication that the thru bolts were replaced.
By the way,I've got ECI steel cylinders & I've had no trouble with them in 529 hours SMOH.

Eric