The International Cessna 170 Association

Can someone please explain to me how the FCC and the FAA can screw this up so badly? In my naive fashion, it seems to me that testing the potential for interference is a pretty straight forward, objective process. Either there is interference or not, it’s a matter of physics.

I would think that the potential interference can be first tested in a lab and then confirmed in the field by flying a radar altimeter equipped plane over a 5G tower. I am sure it’s a bit more complicated but it seems we went way too far down the road before resolving the issue.

https://www.alpa.org/en/resources/aircr ... ference-5G

. But

pdb wrote:Can someone please explain to me how the FCC and the FAA can screw this up so badly? In my naive fashion, it seems to me that testing the potential for interference is a pretty straight forward, objective process. Either there is interference or not, it’s a matter of physics.

I would think that the potential interference can be first tested in a lab and then confirmed in the field by flying a radar altimeter equipped plane over a 5G tower. I am sure it’s a bit more complicated but it seems we went way too far down the road before resolving the issue.

https://www.alpa.org/en/resources/aircr ... ference-5G

I’m not particularly knowledgeable about the process but I’ll venture that the wireless companies develop a new product (5G) and apply to FCC who studies it and finds it doesn’t violate any authorized frequency-band useage and then authorizes a “pilot project” for testing purposes.
FAA didn’t have anything to do with it until the radar altimeter complaints started rolling-in. Just a guess…. It’s not like FAA participates in everything that FCC regulates or industry proposes that doesn’t at-first seem to have any relationship with air travel.

A similar thing occurred with GPS and some VHF radios that tuned to certain frequencies and the sidebands of what appeared to be totally unrelated frequency-bands was found to interfere with GPS navigation within the same aircraft.
This has a corollary with the earlier policy (since pretty-much disallowed) of not allowing laptop or cell-phone use during takeoff and landing…until the interaction became better understood.

Pete, I a friend who is a leading engineer in the field of spectrum and other electronics, who actually learned his trade starting in the early 60s. When there were people who where highly knowledgable in the field from hands on experience. Some of the same people who wrote the theory todays engineers might study. He says the FCC has few people who actually understand the big picture consequence of what they are doing. And there really aren't that many in the FCC to begin compared to the telecom industry. And due to long budget cuts if you are worth anything, you don't work for the FCC, unless of course, it the only place you can find a job. I think we can all relate as we deal with the FAA who finds itself in the same boat. I've found those in the FAA may not have been the strongest in their field.

There is only so much spectrum. No more is being created. Instead we develop technology that allows us to us the same available spectrum to do more by allocating channels space closer and closer together and many times at the expense of older technology. The allure of selling spectrum to the telecom industry for billions because the theory only kids at the FCC think it should work and the political push to do so is just too great. And the FAA kids aren't strong enough to stop it.

I wonder what the public is going to think when their airliner or private jet goes around due to weather and their higher approach mins due to the unavailability of the RA to work reliably. I wonder if the FAA realizes that nearly all helicopter MedEvac flights must be flown with a working RA in ALL airspace in all weather, not just around an airport in bad weather.

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:…. He says the FCC has few people who actually understand the big picture consequence of what they are doing. And there really aren't that many in the FCC to begin compared to the telecom industry. And due to long budget cuts if you are worth anything, you don't work for the FCC, unless of course, it the only place you can find a job. I think we can all relate as we deal with the FAA who finds itself in the same boat. I've found those in the FAA may not have been the strongest in their field….
.

Agree completely. This is one of the down-sides of privatization and “smaller gov’t (gov’t budget cuts.) Private industry (such as telecom and charter schools, etc.) continue to promote such policies because they can convert a portion of the public money to private profit …and it doesn’t always serve the public well.

What happened to FCC part 15 approval. It states in part that the device should neither cause or be susceptible to interference with other products. There is also Part 68 which has something to do with this too. I’ve been retired for 20 years so maybe my memory is dim. Perhaps since a radar altimeter is no a “communications device” there may be a loop hole.

Wasn’t there a dust up about 5G messing with GPS or was that something else? I believe the project involved in that was modified because of complaints from GPS users. On course there are quite a few more GPS units out there than radar altimeters!

Rich

I had a friend whose cabin was on the final approach to Lake Tahoe airport and occasionally his garage door would open or close on a whim. He discovered that sometimes he’d come home from a trip and his garage was open. He was frightened at first he’d taken a trip and forgotten to close it. Then he definitely closed it…and came home to find it open.
He finally determined it was when corporate airplane were landing at the airport …and guessing it was their radar altimeter triggering his garage door opener…. He finally made a “tent” of aluminum foil which he placed over his garage door opener antenna…and luckily…it actually solved the problem.

News reports airline group suing to stop/delay 5G rollout near major airports.

“ WASHINGTON, Dec 31 (Reuters) - U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and the head of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on Friday asked AT&T (T.N) and Verizon Communications (VZ.N) to delay the planned Jan. 5 introduction of new 5G wireless service over aviation safety concerns.

In a letter Friday seen by Reuters, Buttigieg and FAA Administrator Steve Dickson asked AT&T Chief Executive John Stankey and Verizon Chief Executive Hans Vestberg for a delay of no more than two weeks as part of a "proposal as a near-term solution for advancing the co-existence of 5G deployment in the C-Band and safe flight operations."

It was announced just this morning on local television that 5G broadcasters have agreed to delay 5G near the Austin Airport (AUS) for 6 months while some method of amelioration is investigated.

It's a shame it has come to this! They have known for years there would be a problem and nothing was done until 5G is being rolled out. Everywhere I go, I see 5G on my phone, it's already here! It's kinda like landowners wanting to move a pipeline after it's already in the ground.

GAHorn wrote:I had a friend whose cabin was on the final approach to Lake Tahoe airport and occasionally his garage door would open or close on a whim. He discovered that sometimes he’d come home from a trip and his garage was open. He was frightened at first he’d taken a trip and forgotten to close it. Then he definitely closed it…and came home to find it open.
He finally determined it was when corporate airplane were landing at the airport …and guessing it was their radar altimeter triggering his garage door opener…. He finally made a “tent” of aluminum foil which he placed over his garage door opener antenna…and luckily…it actually solved the problem.

I had a garage door mysterious random opening problem too. Took a while to figure it out. One day as my neighbor rolled up and opened his garage, mine opened too. Ding ding ding. When he rebuilt his garage he got the same brand and model of garage door opener after he saw mine. (wall mount, no track down the middle) Same code. Far enough apart so it didn't happen often. He changed his code on the remote, problem solved.

hilltop170 wrote:... Everywhere I go, I see 5G on my phone, it's already here!...

No it's not here Richard other than a few test areas. It has not been rolled out yet. Yes I have no doubt your phone is saying it is. The phone companies have been saying for more than a year now they have a 5G network in the US. But they haven't turned it on.

Reminds me of the FM Immunity nonsense interfering with ILS back around 2000 or so - not an issue here in the states where the FCC strictly controls bandwidth and power, but overseas it was an issue...problem was, it was announced back in 1979 and they had 20 years to do something...but didn't. Airlines, military, etc. all had to scramble at the last minute.

Whats the G stand for?

T-Mobile and Verizon 5G is working and has been for some time. They have not experienced a controversy because they are at the other end if the frequency spectrum and do not interfere with radar altimeters. I have friends who have ATT service and while their phones have the 5G symbol on the screen they do not yet have the service.

I do have T-Mobile and when the 5G service started the speed increase was impressive.

All of this is from a layman who is going on words of smarter friends, which maybe only slightly better than something from the internet.