Comparing Props

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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Collin Gyenes
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 7:26 pm

Re: Cal Twist prop on '52 170

Post by Collin Gyenes »

N3243A wrote:
Collin Gyenes wrote:Hi,

I have the Cal twist prop on my '52 170 and my friend has one on his '55 170 also. The prop mod was recommend by his A.I. that had one on his 170 before he installed Lyc.180. Both my friend and I notice a climb improvement (about 200 fpm) and little improvement in cruse. I had a chance to fly formation with my friend with a '48 170 with a cruse prop. My climb was better. At Cruse side by side I was at 2400 rpm at 115 mph indicated and the '48 170 was at 2300 119 mph indicated. At full power top speeds were the same. I have been happy with the Cal twist prop and think it was a good improvement for the money. The cost was $700.
Collin,

What is the pitch of your "Cal twist" prop?

Bruce Christie
Hi,

The prop was a 76-53, the prop the plane left the factory with. I am going to the hanger today I look to see what the paper work says. If I can't find the info I will call Paul at Aero-Propeller. Also I am going to let my friend with the '48 170 try my prop. I will post the results.
'52 170 N2768D
Collin Gyenes
Oregon Rep
zero.one.victor
Posts: 2271
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am

Post by zero.one.victor »

I'm kinda curious what the propeller mod entails--just repitching or do they shave the blades into another airfoil shape? Collin,you said the prop left the factory as a 76-53--is it a DM,MDM,EM,CM,or ???
I wish all this had been posted before our lunch get-together at Puyallup a few weeks ago--I'da eyeballed your propeller real close.
Gonna be another lunch in October at Snohomish I guess--ya gonna make the long cross-country up here for that one?

Eric
N170BP
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:24 pm

Comparing Props

Post by N170BP »

Thought I'd post some results from various props I've tried on
my '54 170B.

I had been chasing a vibration problem on the propeller that came
with my airplane. I wanted to re-pitch it to a flatter pitch to bump
up the climb performance a bit anyway, so I pulled it and put it in
the prop shop for a re-pitch / balance.

Initially, I was just barely getting the lower static RPM limit (per
the Type Certificate) of 2200 rpm. This prop was a 53 pitch and is
75.25 inches long. 100 feet down the takeoff roll, I was seeing
right around 2300 rpm. Flat out (level, all trimmed out), I was lucky
to break 2600 rpm. This prop gave me a cruise speed of around 101-102 knots at 2500 rpm. These numbers led me to pull the prop and have it
re-pitched. I told the prop shop to give me 100-150 more static rpm.

Out of the prop shop, this same prop turned 2400 rpm 100 feet
down the take-off roll, and I could just red-line it in level flight.
It was re-pitched to a 51. Cruise speed only suffered slightly and
settled right around 98-100 knots.

In my effort to determine if my original prop was responsible
for the vibration problem, I borrowed an early C-172 prop.
This thing was a little short (!) at 73.75 inches, and was a 53
pitch. With this prop, my vibration problem vanished, and the
performance was very similar to my 51 pitched (original) prop.

Finally, I just picked up a used climb prop (48 pitch) and this thing
really made the takeoff performance in the 170 come alive (if
you can call it that!!!). RPM 100 feet into the takeoff roll is 2600
and I can red-line it in a shallow climb (would make for a great
banner-towing or boon-doggin' in the country airplane). Cruise
speed is of course, dismal.... (90-95 knots).

My utimate goal is to get a prop pitched to a 51 that turns smooth.
I might add that I've tried both suggested prop indexing methods....
T/C mark on the edge of the prop flange at 6 o'clock with the #1 blade
at the 11 o'clock position, and the trailing edge of #1 blade aligned with the T/C mark (the latter being the method reccommended by the Globe/
Temco Swift folks). To be honest, I didn't notice any difference between
the two indexing methods....

So finally, my question is.... How many times can you re-pitch
a prop? The climb prop I obtained was re-pitched once already
(from a cruise prop, I imagine) to the 48 pitch. Is it safe or
advisable for me to have this prop re-pitched again to a '51?

TIA,

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
Collin Gyenes
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 7:26 pm

Re: Cal Twist prop on '52 170

Post by Collin Gyenes »

N3243A wrote:
Collin Gyenes wrote:Hi,

I have the Cal twist prop on my '52 170 and my friend has one on his '55 170 also. The prop mod was recommend by his A.I. that had one on his 170 before he installed Lyc.180. Both my friend and I notice a climb improvement (about 200 fpm) and little improvement in cruse. I had a chance to fly formation with my friend with a '48 170 with a cruse prop. My climb was better. At Cruse side by side I was at 2400 rpm at 115 mph indicated and the '48 170 was at 2300 119 mph indicated. At full power top speeds were the same. I have been happy with the Cal twist prop and think it was a good improvement for the money. The cost was $700.
Collin,

What is the pitch of your "Cal twist" prop?

Hi,

I talked to Paul from Aero Propeller today. He told me the prop is still 53 pitch. But the prop has more pitch changes per sector and the blade is now thinner and narrower. Aero Propeller started doing this mod in 1965. He also said this McCauley started doing a similar prop in 1977 for the 172. Aero Propeller claims at least 5-7 MPH gains. There Phone # is 909 765-3178

Bruce Christie
'52 170 N2768D
Collin Gyenes
Oregon Rep
Collin Gyenes
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 7:26 pm

Pitch of the Cal twist prop

Post by Collin Gyenes »

Hi,

The prop was and still is 53 inch pitch.
'52 170 N2768D
Collin Gyenes
Oregon Rep
AR Dave
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:06 pm

Prop thoughts?

Post by AR Dave »

As long as you don’t have to be ultra-precise, TAS can be calculated without OAT. There is a rule of thumb that TAS increases 2% for every 1000 ft above sea level. (yes I’m getting this out of a book, you know I’m not the, area is = pie x radius sqd, kinda guy!) However, I do know about area growing because of pie! :cry:
I’m on a search to justify my 8043 prop in the South, besides the aesthetic value of helping a plane look like a plane ought to look. :wink:

1. If Joe and I take off at the same time and he climbs at 500 fpm @ 70 mph and I climb at 1000 fpm @ 70 mph, then my TAS would be increasing over his 1% for every 1000 ft., until cruise? His angle of attack would be less. If I get to 8000 when he gets to 4000, will my 4% TAS cruise advantage get me a jump in the next 8 mins before he comes barreling by at 20 mph faster? For 8 mins I could cruise at 40 mph faster (105 mph (2600rpm) + ~5mph altitude = 110). That'd be about 5 miles ahead when reaches 8000? It would take him 15mins to catch up the 5 miles with his 20mph faster cruise prop? I don’t know if I said that right, but you see what I’m getting at. Is this flawed thinking? Should I max my climb on 3 hr trips, like the airlines? :idea:

2. This summer I didn’t experience the kind of lonnnnng takeoffs that ya’ll were describing in the hot, less dense air. Or what I was I was expecting anyway. Is my climb performance 8043 going to drop proportionally to a 7653 in heat and altitude? If I’m flying behind George to the 2004 convention out west, will I catch up and pass when he’s circling to gain altitude for going over the Rockies? Are there other variables involved?
This will probably be really lame. When the air is thinner at 10,000 ft or 110 OAT. Is there any chance since my prop grabs more air that it might not decrease in cruise performance as much as the thinner/shallower pitched props or is this all still just proportional no matter what? Wouldn’t the cruise prop lose climb capabilities at higher altitude before climb prop? I’ve jumped up to 12,000 for a few minutes, just to play around McKinley, but it was definitely loosing climb performance.

3. If I wanted to give up some climb performance for better cruise, should I just decrease the pitch to 80## something, or should I just take the 60hr prop, 60hr 8.50 tires, droop tips and everything Alaskan (V-brace) and send them to Spiro or Bruce? Then turn it into a street plane.
It hurts to even think about it, but my wife and I were discussing that when we reach retirement in 30 or 40 yrs and start flying to Conventions, will we still want the off road plane anymore? :P

But on the other hand, what’s 115mph compared to 100mph? No one should be flying a 170 for speed anyway. They’re made for landing within 300’ in the dark and looking good! :) My wife's still eyeing that Saratoga! 8O
zero.one.victor
Posts: 2271
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am

Post by zero.one.victor »

Dave,I think I'd want to fly behind a 76-53 or 76-51 prop
before you actually buy one,either a borrowed prop on your 170 or in someone else's. Do you know anybody up north who's repitched an 80" prop to more than 43,like maybe 46 or 47? I think that might be the way to go. Once you sell or trade off that 80" prop,you'll have a hard time finding a replacement at anything other than new prices.
I run a 76-51,but drool when I hear about the performance people see with theior 80-43's.

Eric
AR Dave
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Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:06 pm

Post by AR Dave »

My previous 80" had been pitched to 44 then 42 and finally 43, by the previous owner. 8043 seems to be the ideal set up for climb performance. I agree, would like to know if anyone has repitched an 80" for better cruise? BTW, I'm not the only one curious about this discussion here! Thanks.
Walker
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 12:52 pm

Post by Walker »

When I bought my 170B, it had a McCauley DM7452 on it. As you know, minimum diameter is 74.5". The aircraft had been annualed many times with that prop on it. Could the mechanic that put that prop on it had been trying to achieve what N170B was discussing earlier. Could the 1A170 designation have misled the IA? Or, in spite of the 74.5" minimum, is the prop "legal" to have on the plane?
zero.one.victor
Posts: 2271
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am

Post by zero.one.victor »

The reason I asked about repitching an 80" prop--I seem to recall somebody (maybe on the old yahoo club site?) talking about ordering a brand new 1A175DM 8-43 prop & having it immediately re-pitched to 47. I can't recall if the re-pitch was done by the factory or a propeller shop. I guess the stock 43 pitch is good for float operations but repitching to 47 gave better results on wheels. Trouble is,I think these props list at close to $3K new nowadays. Hard to find one used.
Maybe whoever posted about the 80-47 prop a while back will speak up?

Eric
User avatar
GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

Walker wrote:When I bought my 170B, it had a McCauley DM7452 on it. As you know, minimum diameter is 74.5". The aircraft had been annualed many times with that prop on it. Could the mechanic that put that prop on it had been trying to achieve what N170B was discussing earlier. Could the 1A170 designation have misled the IA? Or, in spite of the 74.5" minimum, is the prop "legal" to have on the plane?
The type cert. doesn't specify a DM7653 or MDM 7653 etc. It only specifies a 1A170, with certain diameter limits (76" to 74.5") and certain rpm min/max's. If the prop was a 7452, then it started life out at 74" and therefore is illegal without some other basis of approval like an STC or field approval.
pauldpilot
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 6:06 am

propellers

Post by pauldpilot »

Seems I remember some talk from a prop smart kinda guy, that when you go about re-pitching, the numbers are not true. They can't get a true "47", or "51" like comes out of the factory. They can only try to get the same pitch along the length of the blade. May explain some of the vibration levels after a re-pitch. Seems you just go for the RPM your looking for, and the pitch is what ever the pitch is.
I would call it my 2 cents worth, but that would be a bit overpriced.
pauldpilot
Walker
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 12:52 pm

Post by Walker »

Thank you Mr. Horn. That is what I could tell; in regards to the 7452 prop installation.It never hurts to find out why something has been changed before deciding to change it. In reviewing the logs, the prop was installed during the last poor overhaul and current FWF inspection is due to prop strike. Judging by what has been seen on dissambley and inspection of the rebuild, I would put no faith in the judgement of the mechanic that installed the prop. Maybe the prop that is on the plane helped to destroy the engine in 125 hours.
AR Dave
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Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:06 pm

Post by AR Dave »

High Altitude & Heat: In Hillbilly Terms - As the air gets thinner the prop can't grab enough air to produce the same thrust. At some point you can't climb no more! At this point wouldn't you want to change the pitch from 51 to 42?
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