I happened upon George's message of April 12 2001 regarding preference for full-stop landings vs. touch & go's. I agree that full stops are a better teaching tool as you can speak with the student while taxiing back and because you do waste a lot of runway transitioning from landing to T.O.
Also, George mentioned that T & G's are hard on your engine. Is that because you go from a cooled engine to full power ? Is it really harder on the engine than normal takeoffs & landings ?
But for sheer fun, I love to do touch & go's in my airplane !
Rudy
Touch & Go's vs. Full-Stop
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Hi Rudy,
Seems to me that during the taxi back to the departure end of the runway after a full stop landing lets the engine cool as much if not more than at the later stages of rollout. I think the key here is the smooth gradual application of power.
I started with full stop landings, but now prefer to do a touch and go once I am satisfied that I have full control of the aircraft on rollout. The taxiway at my airport does not run full length of the runway, so a full stop procedure requires a partial back taxi which hogs the runway.
Once I have a good feeling for the rollout directional control, and after flaps are up and carb heat in, I smoothly apply power for the takeoff phase. I don't see this as any worse that smoothly applying power on takeoff after a full stop landing. The only caution I would give on touch and goes is directional control while messing with the flaps. I have almost lost directional control on the rollout while diverting my attention from staying on centerline to raising the flaps. My vision perspective changes with the body motion required to stow the big flap handle, and it is in this phase that I have toured both edges of the runway
Seems to me that during the taxi back to the departure end of the runway after a full stop landing lets the engine cool as much if not more than at the later stages of rollout. I think the key here is the smooth gradual application of power.
I started with full stop landings, but now prefer to do a touch and go once I am satisfied that I have full control of the aircraft on rollout. The taxiway at my airport does not run full length of the runway, so a full stop procedure requires a partial back taxi which hogs the runway.
Once I have a good feeling for the rollout directional control, and after flaps are up and carb heat in, I smoothly apply power for the takeoff phase. I don't see this as any worse that smoothly applying power on takeoff after a full stop landing. The only caution I would give on touch and goes is directional control while messing with the flaps. I have almost lost directional control on the rollout while diverting my attention from staying on centerline to raising the flaps. My vision perspective changes with the body motion required to stow the big flap handle, and it is in this phase that I have toured both edges of the runway
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
-
zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
My biggest distraction with doing T&G's is resetting the trim to TO position. In my ragwing,I am generally landing with the trim set all or almost all the way nose up. With a ragwing,when you add flaps (power off)you have to trim the nose up,bigtime,to maintain normal approach speed without any back pressure. I guess it's the opposite for a B model,as you add flaps you have to trim the nose down to maintain the same speed.Anyway,I have to reset the trim back to TO position,which is about half of the considerable trim travel. This takes a few seconds,plus I have to look down to verify that the trim indicator is pointing where it should. My CFI friend chewed me out during my last BFR for only shoving in about half throttle when she told me to do a go around. I explained that if I cob it with the trim set for landing it'd be real easy to demonstrate a departure stall without even trying!
You B model pilots,where is the trim set when you're landing as compared to takeoff position?
Eric
You B model pilots,where is the trim set when you're landing as compared to takeoff position?
Eric
My perspective on touch-and-go's are from the CFI's position. By the time I've coached someone thru the approach and landing, and then have to suddenly transition to the "go", then I've lost the opportunity to discuss the affair with the "student". Usually, the "student" is so distracted, and rushed to get it cleaned up, trimmed, and perform the takeoff, ...there's no opportunity for critique. Not to mention the sometimes rushed application of power, and the busy cockpit activities, and directional control issues, etc., etc..
The rushed application of power, (usually caused by a mistaken perspective by the student that time/distance-remaining as an issue) is abusive of the engine. (Think about crankshaft counterweights slamming first one way, then the other, temperature excursions, gear-train down-run vs spin-up, etc.) ...all at the expense of a leisurely taxi back to the start-up point (which we've all known forever is safest...to use the full length) and the missed opportunity to re-collect ourselves, discuss the techniques, and learn the details of the last circuit. It also misses the important lessons of directional control during the first movement under take-off power. (There's not much to be learned from an airplane already under such forward motion that the rudder is already effective. The real challenge is keeping the thing pointed exactly down the centerline when transitioning from a full stop to 40 kts. This involves a tendency to drift left, then after full right rudder is applied, to learn the technique/rate of reducing that full right-rudder to keep from drifting right of centerline, then transitioning back to right rudder to overcome P-factor as flying speed is achieved. Very little of this is demontrate-able in a touch-and-go.
By myself? Just getting night-current again? Well, that requires a full stop anyway. Read the rules.
Not to say that a touch and go hasn't got it's place. It does. It's the best way to practice a down-to-the-last-minute balked landing (as if there's a sudden reason to not be on the runway, like a fire-truck which has veered onto the runway, ...like what happened to me during a type-ride in a 737, no less! Or if I'm just interested in the approach/touch-down phase,...not the roll-out phase of the landing.)
But since when is the roll-out phase not of interest in a taildragger? It ain't over 'til it's tied down. Right?
The rushed application of power, (usually caused by a mistaken perspective by the student that time/distance-remaining as an issue) is abusive of the engine. (Think about crankshaft counterweights slamming first one way, then the other, temperature excursions, gear-train down-run vs spin-up, etc.) ...all at the expense of a leisurely taxi back to the start-up point (which we've all known forever is safest...to use the full length) and the missed opportunity to re-collect ourselves, discuss the techniques, and learn the details of the last circuit. It also misses the important lessons of directional control during the first movement under take-off power. (There's not much to be learned from an airplane already under such forward motion that the rudder is already effective. The real challenge is keeping the thing pointed exactly down the centerline when transitioning from a full stop to 40 kts. This involves a tendency to drift left, then after full right rudder is applied, to learn the technique/rate of reducing that full right-rudder to keep from drifting right of centerline, then transitioning back to right rudder to overcome P-factor as flying speed is achieved. Very little of this is demontrate-able in a touch-and-go.
By myself? Just getting night-current again? Well, that requires a full stop anyway. Read the rules.
Not to say that a touch and go hasn't got it's place. It does. It's the best way to practice a down-to-the-last-minute balked landing (as if there's a sudden reason to not be on the runway, like a fire-truck which has veered onto the runway, ...like what happened to me during a type-ride in a 737, no less! Or if I'm just interested in the approach/touch-down phase,...not the roll-out phase of the landing.)
But since when is the roll-out phase not of interest in a taildragger? It ain't over 'til it's tied down. Right?
Well, it depends on what you are wanting to acomplish! If you are a seasoned taildragger pilot and the wind is blowing 15 gusting to 20 across the runway, then touch and gos with tight pattern work will get you the most practice in the shortest amount of time. At night, stop and gos work well. If someone needs to learn how to taxi a taildragger, a full stop with taxi back to takeoff works well. But like Rudy says, there is a lot of fun to be had doing touch and gos. You can mix up wheelies with 3 pointers and get a lot in by not taking the time to taxi back. I am not seeing the hardship on the engine being at idle on base vs idle on taxi, full power will be applied in either case.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
Touch & Go's
I do a lot of tailwheel endorsement training in my C170A (90 of the last 100 hours) at a controlled aerodrome with parallel runways and up to 8 aircraft in the circuit at once. I do touch and go's (but always slow to walking pace before the "go") or, when it is not so busy, stop and go's.
I agree that the interesting/learning part of tailwheel flying is the part from start of takeoff roll to airborne and from short final to stopped (tied down ??). These are the bits I want the "student" to practice. Taxiing back involves 2 frequency changes and crossing the other runway twice - this is not a practical option. Talk to the student time is from after take-off checks to late downwind (with a few interruptions due radio calls and pre-landing checks).
It is my practice for the instructor (me) to raise the flap and adjust the trim after each touchdown/roll-out. The student is tasked with maintaining directional control - closely monitored by the instructor. If the tower is feeling helpful and there are no helicopters operating inside the (fixed wing) circuit we ask for low level (500') circuits which allow up to 12 circuits/hour. Our T&G runway is about 1100 metres long. 
Always have the tail on the ground and have slowed to well below flying speed before applying the brakes. The other day a student applied heavy braking to make a (left) taxiway exit (fortunately only at a fast taxi speed) and the left brake did not work - needless to say we made a rather ungraceful right hand 270 degree turn before exiting stage left.
The brake disk was warped to such an extent that it needed replacing.
Safe and happy touch (or stop) and go's
David.
I agree that the interesting/learning part of tailwheel flying is the part from start of takeoff roll to airborne and from short final to stopped (tied down ??). These are the bits I want the "student" to practice. Taxiing back involves 2 frequency changes and crossing the other runway twice - this is not a practical option. Talk to the student time is from after take-off checks to late downwind (with a few interruptions due radio calls and pre-landing checks).
It is my practice for the instructor (me) to raise the flap and adjust the trim after each touchdown/roll-out. The student is tasked with maintaining directional control - closely monitored by the instructor.
If the tower is feeling helpful and there are no helicopters operating inside the (fixed wing) circuit we ask for low level (500') circuits which allow up to 12 circuits/hour. Our T&G runway is about 1100 metres long. Always have the tail on the ground and have slowed to well below flying speed before applying the brakes. The other day a student applied heavy braking to make a (left) taxiway exit (fortunately only at a fast taxi speed) and the left brake did not work - needless to say we made a rather ungraceful right hand 270 degree turn before exiting stage left.
The brake disk was warped to such an extent that it needed replacing.Safe and happy touch (or stop) and go's
David.
All great points being made here 
Once I revalidate my CFI and start teaching my wife in our 170, we will indeed be taking the time to taxi back to the departure end of the runway. George is quite correct that this taxi back phase is an ideal low-workload time in which to reflect upon the landing just completed. When the L-19 vet was checking my out last month in the plane before leaving Alabama, he had me taxi back for departure each time. Once he realized that my real problem was in the flare and touchdown stage, not in the rollout, he started me on touch and goes.
The 170 being my first single engine piston aircraft to fly in quite a few years, my main problem is judging a proper flare and then how much elevator pressure to use. I am used to a much heavier jet aircraft that requires quite a bit of back pressure together with electric trim for a nice flare. I quickly found out that my tendancy in the 170 is to pull the yoke and control tube clean out of the panel during flare initiation Of course now that I am learning to maneuver the piece of paper (C-170) around the pattern, my flares in the jet are getting scary
As I mentioned before, the gradual application of power is the key during a touch and go to make the engine happy and keep the P-factor down. I come in with half power during the rollout while fumbling to get the flaps up and carb heat in, leave the trim where it is, come in with the rest of the power and then over power the nose down trim to lift off and then do a final clean up when the trees are a comfortable distance below.
Once I revalidate my CFI and start teaching my wife in our 170, we will indeed be taking the time to taxi back to the departure end of the runway. George is quite correct that this taxi back phase is an ideal low-workload time in which to reflect upon the landing just completed. When the L-19 vet was checking my out last month in the plane before leaving Alabama, he had me taxi back for departure each time. Once he realized that my real problem was in the flare and touchdown stage, not in the rollout, he started me on touch and goes.The 170 being my first single engine piston aircraft to fly in quite a few years, my main problem is judging a proper flare and then how much elevator pressure to use. I am used to a much heavier jet aircraft that requires quite a bit of back pressure together with electric trim for a nice flare. I quickly found out that my tendancy in the 170 is to pull the yoke and control tube clean out of the panel during flare initiation
Of course now that I am learning to maneuver the piece of paper (C-170) around the pattern, my flares in the jet are getting scary As I mentioned before, the gradual application of power is the key during a touch and go to make the engine happy and keep the P-factor down. I come in with half power during the rollout while fumbling to get the flaps up and carb heat in, leave the trim where it is, come in with the rest of the power and then over power the nose down trim to lift off and then do a final clean up when the trees are a comfortable distance below.
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
Unless practicing power-off/emergency landings, ...why do you have power off on base-leg? I recommend 1500-1800 rpm from downwind to threshold, to my students. As for 15-20 mph/kt crosswinds,...I feel that is the best time of all to do full-stops. The real skill-lesson to be learned in a taildragger is that transition period from stop to flying speed, and a crosswind it the toughest to deal with. Touch and goes in those conditons actually avoids that transition period which is so important to learn. (My second 2-cents.)N1478D wrote:Well, it depends on what you are wanting to acomplish! If you are a seasoned taildragger pilot and the wind is blowing 15 gusting to 20 across the runway, then touch and gos with tight pattern work will get you the most practice in the shortest amount of time. At night, stop and gos work well. If someone needs to learn how to taxi a taildragger, a full stop with taxi back to takeoff works well. But like Rudy says, there is a lot of fun to be had doing touch and gos. You can mix up wheelies with 3 pointers and get a lot in by not taking the time to taxi back. I am not seeing the hardship on the engine being at idle on base vs idle on taxi, full power will be applied in either case.
My touch and gos are not that much different than a stop and go, fully agree that the transition period from flying to driving is one to learn and practice. I would suspect it is during that period that most ground loops are allowed to happen. You could even break it down further - weight from wings to wheels, control from flight surfaces to steering. Why do you recommend 1500-1800 rpm on base? At idle it seems like a better practice of energy management, an engine out simulation, and tighter pattern work allowing you to stay close to the runway. My practice is to start reducing rpm 100 at a time approaching the pattern. I am at 1500-1800 opposite the threshold. Not at all promoting or arguing, just curious about your logic and reasons.gahorn wrote:Unless practicing power-off/emergency landings, ...why do you have power off on base-leg? I recommend 1500-1800 rpm from downwind to threshold, to my students. As for 15-20 mph/kt crosswinds,...I feel that is the best time of all to do full-stops. The real skill-lesson to be learned in a taildragger is that transition period from stop to flying speed, and a crosswind it the toughest to deal with. Touch and goes in those conditons actually avoids that transition period which is so important to learn. (My second 2-cents.)N1478D wrote:Well, it depends on what you are wanting to acomplish! If you are a seasoned taildragger pilot and the wind is blowing 15 gusting to 20 across the runway, then touch and gos with tight pattern work will get you the most practice in the shortest amount of time. At night, stop and gos work well. If someone needs to learn how to taxi a taildragger, a full stop with taxi back to takeoff works well. But like Rudy says, there is a lot of fun to be had doing touch and gos. You can mix up wheelies with 3 pointers and get a lot in by not taking the time to taxi back. I am not seeing the hardship on the engine being at idle on base vs idle on taxi, full power will be applied in either case.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
-
zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
George,why NOT have the power off on base? Ideally,I shoot for having the power down to 1800 rpm or so by midfield downwind,with power down to idle by my turn to base. Don't always achieve this,so sometimes I'm carrying a little power all the way in. I feel that if a person is too used to carrying that much power (1500-1800) all the way to the runway,if his engine does go gunnysack he's had it.
How big a pattern do you teach your students? Carrying that much power makes for a shallow descent,which sounds to me like a big pattern. I see that alot,people are flying 737-sized patterns in personal-size airplanes. I guess they believe in a "stabilized approach".Just the other day I followed a Cherokee in at my home airport that flew his downwind about 3 miles from the runway & flew about a 2 mile final. While flying this airliner pattern,he flew right thru the TFR around the Navy base just east of our airport.
I think as a rule of thumb,setting up for a half-mile final with your downwind flown a half-mile from the runway is a plenty big pattern. I often fly downwind even closer & turn a quarter-mile final when I'm familiar with the field.
Eric
How big a pattern do you teach your students? Carrying that much power makes for a shallow descent,which sounds to me like a big pattern. I see that alot,people are flying 737-sized patterns in personal-size airplanes. I guess they believe in a "stabilized approach".Just the other day I followed a Cherokee in at my home airport that flew his downwind about 3 miles from the runway & flew about a 2 mile final. While flying this airliner pattern,he flew right thru the TFR around the Navy base just east of our airport.
I think as a rule of thumb,setting up for a half-mile final with your downwind flown a half-mile from the runway is a plenty big pattern. I often fly downwind even closer & turn a quarter-mile final when I'm familiar with the field.
Eric
Eric, I'm with you. I like to fly the back country and many of our Idaho back country strips are rough and short. Therefor I do my best to make ALL my landings close in and short field. This means that seldom is my speed more than 1.2 to 1.4 VSO from downwind to touchdown. (I'm usually too close to even consider a base leg.) For more on this technique see Sparky Imeson's "Mountain Flying Bible". For those who never fly in the mountain areas it makes no difference probably.
Pete
Pete
Pete Kuckenberg
Hi Gang,
The L-19 Vet that gave me my initial tailwheel checkout in my 170 in June always instructed me to carry power to the runway. I never asked him his logic behind the power issue, as it did produce a nice stable final and if I came off the power smoothly during the flare, a nice landing would result. For wheel landings, I was not to come off the power until the mains were on the runway. I have since settled with a technique of carrying a bit of power to the runway, going to idle just before the flare entry, and ending up with a tail-low wheel landing. Even with the Madras tips removed, I just cannot get a three point landing...so it's wheelies for me
I do agree that short field landings over obstacles would require a steep power off approach, but given a well maintained runway and clear zone, I do like to carry 1300 RPM or so to the runway. I like to think that the engine prefers the power on approach to keep cylinder temps more stable and things somewhat spooled up in case of a go-around
The L-19 Vet that gave me my initial tailwheel checkout in my 170 in June always instructed me to carry power to the runway. I never asked him his logic behind the power issue, as it did produce a nice stable final and if I came off the power smoothly during the flare, a nice landing would result. For wheel landings, I was not to come off the power until the mains were on the runway. I have since settled with a technique of carrying a bit of power to the runway, going to idle just before the flare entry, and ending up with a tail-low wheel landing. Even with the Madras tips removed, I just cannot get a three point landing...so it's wheelies for me
I do agree that short field landings over obstacles would require a steep power off approach, but given a well maintained runway and clear zone, I do like to carry 1300 RPM or so to the runway. I like to think that the engine prefers the power on approach to keep cylinder temps more stable and things somewhat spooled up in case of a go-around
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
Sorry George, forgot that your plane at 1500/1800 RPM IS the same as ours at idle on base, DA. We are all on the same page, knew there would not be any way you would teach 747 patterns to 170 students.