Prefabricated instrument panels: IFR

mjgardne · Post by **mjgardne** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 6:00 am

Hi Everyone,

I am thinking about installing a new instrument panel for light IFR work. I want to arrange my flight instruments in the "T" style that I'm used to scanning. I am going to have a "Y" flight yoke installed. I was wondering whether there are any reputable shops that might prefab a panel that I can have my local folks install. I am using the following radio gear:

UPS/Apollo SL10 Audio Panel
UPS/Apollo SL30 Nav/Com
UPS/Apollo GX50 GPS
Transponder

I started with the audio panel and nav/com. These units are awesome, so I am adding the Apollo GPS unit. Garmin makes great devices, but I like the idea of having separate components because it may limit the extent of what may fail in flight. Although it is not in the immediate future, I would like to leave room for a moving map (i.e. MX20), just in case...

Anyway, I want to put the radio stack in the center of the panel, and have two remote indicators (#1 SL30 (precision/nonprecision approaches), #2 GX50 (nonprecision approaches) Will I have to fabricate my own panel locally, or can you recommend some shops that have experience creating panels for C170s, so I can have my local folks do the "plumbing." I was hoping to provide a list of my components, and a preferred layout.

Any help would be appreciated,

Mike

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 6:40 pm

Both Gulf Coast Avionics http://www.gulf-coast-avionics.com/ and Aircraft Spruce http://www.aircraftspruce.com/ advertise custom-built instrument/avionics panels.

Bill Venohr · Post by **Bill Venohr** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 7:33 pm

I wasn't paying much attention, but there were quite a few vendors with displays at Oshkosh that specialize in building panels. Probably worth some time on the internet.

4583C · Post by **4583C** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 10:15 pm

Check out this link http://www.avion.com I think this guy was and may still be an association member. Paul

lcranton · Post by **lcranton** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 4:46 am

Mike, Currently I' am installing a center stack instrument panel and "U" control column in my C170B. Harry at DEL-AIR has an STC for a center stack panel. He modifies the original 170 control column by using the top half of a later Cessna "U" shaped 172 control column. I purchased my donor column from a salvage yard for $275. Harry is cutting and welding the two columns into the new 170 "U" column. This is done inorder to retain the original 170 control column pivot bolt to control wheel shaft vertical dimensions and the pivot bolt to lower push rod attach dimensions. Therefore there is no change in the elevator control geometry. Previously I had designed and installed my own "T" instrument panel using the original 170 control column and I' am using that panel design. The DEL-AIR STC'd panel is a "T" configuration and looks nice. From the drawings I have seen the design and parts look to be of good quality. Give Harry a call at 559-784-9440 and he will send you some information on the STC. I' am also installing a new stack of UPSAT/Garmin avionics. By the way DEL-AIR also has a baggage door STC for the 170

SL15
SL30
GX60
Garmin GTX327

Good luck on your modification.

Larry

mjgardne · Post by **mjgardne** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:28 pm

Thanks for the leads!

wa4jr · Post by **wa4jr** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 4:21 am

What a timely post! Before making my 170B IFR capable, I have decided that I really need a more modern panel layout and CBs instead of fuses. Of course I am not doing anything before I get my A&P, I am in the planning stage. I do want to go with the center stack radio arrangement, but the talk of control column modification bothers me

I suppose the obvious question is why mess around with the control column

Is there a clearance problem with center stack radios and the original control column when the yoke is brought all the way aft

BTW, the SL30 is really a nice space saving radio, but I can't justify the gosh darn cost of this unit

Can't stomach paying almost 50% of an engine overhaul for one radio. Is there a special going on that I don't know about....otherwise I will just stay with my original plan of a KX 155 with a KX 170B as the #2 unit.

Post by **GAHorn** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 5:54 am

John, behind the original panel the control column is shaped like a "T". Therefore there's absolutely no way that radios can be installed in the center-stack position because the control column interferes. Later aircraft had the column shaped like a "Y" in order to allow clearance for the radios. A later Cessna column can be substituted, or you can do the Del-Air thing. Either way, it's an STC or a Field approval (and no small amount of work.)
While on this subject, allow me to mention an alternative to the SL-30. It will take some more room, but the benefits are considerable. Think about a Bendix/King KNS 80 unit. Although 3" tall, it is a VOR/LOC/GS/DME and RNAV all rolled into one. With a KI-206 or 209 VOR/GS indicator you'll have a great set up. Think about a KX125 for a second Nav/Com (which requires no additional panel space for an indicator) or a KLX-135A or other COM/GPS and if you have an encoded TXDR the only thing you'll be missing will be an auto-land autopilot system!
KNS-80's can be had complete with indicators for less than $2K. (If you don't need DME or RNAV then consider a KNS-81 which uses even less panel space.) KX-125's and KLX-135's can be had for less than that, and a KLN-88 Loran with a KX-197 com can end up costing less than $1200.
So there you have several systems that can navigate as well as the glass-cockpit Boeings do for $3K-$4K or less.

wa4jr · Post by **wa4jr** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 2:16 am

Thanks for the tips George. Sounds like making my ship IFR capable with a decent panel configuration just got much more complicated

I suppose the DEL-AIR route is the best way to go. Not sure I follow the line of thought between welding a hybrid control column together, but assume that it is to keep the control tubes exiting at the same point in the panel instead of being higher or lower if one were to use the complete column from a later 172

George you must clue me in on where you are seeing these avionics prices

Surely you are not looking in Trade-a-Plane. From what I can see, and from a visit to my local shop, even a used KX-155 with the KI-209 will run around $2500. The lineup I am figuring on is a KMA-24 audio panel at the top, with the KX-155 , KX-170B, Apollo 604 Loran, and AT-150 xpndr all in that order. I already have the KX-170B, Apollo 604 and AT-150 presently installed. I like the idea of the KNS-80, but then my problem is I would need a good primary COM. Don' t want to rely on the KX-170B too heavily. Not sure how useful DME really is these days. I amost never use it at work. Would the RNAV capability of the KNS-80 eliminate the need for the loran

But first you need to clue me in to where you see such good equipment at such low (relatively speaking) prices

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:35 am

A KY-97A and an ICOM A200 (actually the same radio with different face-plates) are excellent flat-pack COMs that can sit right on top of a KNS-80 and will give you all the great features of COM/NAV/LOC/GS/DME/RNAV for less than $3K. (KY-97A is $900, KNS-80 is $1K-$2K depending upon source. The indicator will run another $500-$700 in most cases unless you get lucky.)
Either sell that Apollo 604 on ebay or throw it away and save the panel space. You'd be much better off with a KLN-88 or Northstar M-1 because they're both still supported by their mfr's and with database updates. Loran is here for a long, long time yet. (The KLN-88 will give you moving map navigation, up-to-date databases, and IFR capable quality for less than $500. It's the all-time best bargain as far as Loran goes.)
Get avionics info at http://www.avionix.com (including full-blown used-with-warranty prices). Shop directly with your local avionics shop or http://www.ebay.com under "avionics" or "bendix-king" etc for the lower seller-to-buyer opportunities. (Beware of buying avionics online in "as removed" or "working when removed" condition without a return guarantee. Never buy expensive items from an online auction with anything other than a credit card. At least your credit card company will assist you in withholding payment if there's a problem.)

wa4jr · Post by **wa4jr** » Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:13 pm

I see that some folks are going with just one COM unit in the panel for IFR work. I have always been a fan of two COM units so that I can go off on one freq for ATIS, etc., while still listening to ATC on the #1 COM and to have a backup COM just in case. Since panel space is at a premium for radios, I could carry a handheld unit, but don't care for all the clutter, or I could mount a COM unit in one of the round panel holes

I know the modern COM units are very reliable and am just wondering how you all feel with running just one COM unit in the panel...perhaps with a handheld unit stuffed in the flight bag for when ALL the power goes away

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:27 pm

My panel has the Garmin GNC 250 as comm #1 and a TKM MX11 as comm #2. This gives me 4 flipflops and the ability to hear ATC and ATIS/or whomever at the same time. The stack sits in the same position as the glove box, but on the drivers side. Top is the GNC 250 GPS, then the MX11, and then the Garmin GTX 320 transponder. Access and line of sight is great.

Post by **GAHorn** » Wed Sep 04, 2002 11:00 pm

I prefer to not try to do everything at once. My technique is to wait until Center hands me off to Approach, then before calling approach (since they're waiting on me) I listen to ATIS. After I've got that info, THEN I call approach. If I want to listen/communicate on a different frequency enroute I simply let Center know I'll be off frequency for a minute or so. It's never a problem, I don't have to try to do everything at once, and Center doesn't get frustrated because I didn't answer them immediately just because they've told me about some traffic that's no factor anyway, etc.
I carry a handheld in my flight bag anyway, just for backup and in case I'm ever forced down.

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:33 am

I believe two radios are a safety benefit. Say you are flying in Class B but landing at an uncontrolled field under the Class B airspace for example. With two radios you can listen ahead to the traffic flow at the uncontrolled airport and have situation awareness and accordingly plan your descent and entry into the pattern while staying in contact with ATC. Also, at times when you need to tune ATIS you are close to another airport and it is prudent to at least listen to the position reports from that traffic. And it is nice to have four frequencys to hold ATIS, Clearance Delivery, Ground Control, and the tower while on the ground. And you have room to place Departure Control in one of those before takeoff. Two radios allow you to tune frequencies during low work load periods helping to prevent trying to do everything at once. And, it is nice to have a backup if a radio or antennae quits. You can definitely get by with only one radio, and at times with two radios you will only be using one, BUT, for those times when two come in handy, it is very nice to have them.

n3833v · Post by **n3833v** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:56 pm

I don't know if this will help anyone , but it's here.
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ ... 2406425647

The International Cessna 170 Association

Prefabricated instrument panels: IFR

Prefabricated instrument panels: IFR

Y yoke