I have an off the wall question for the forum.
I own a ragwing,love the airplane--no corrosion,low-time engine,etc. However,I sure like the metal wing and big barn-door flaps on the B model.I hate to sell mine & buy a B,I'd no doubt take a financial beating provided I could find one I'm happy with,plus it'd take a couple years of pecking away at it to get the airframe sorted out to my satisfaction.
Hypothetically speaking,what would be required to mount a set of 170-B (or 175,or early 172) wings and struts on my ragwing? Just for fun,let's assume the paperwork could be approved without too much trouble,I'm talking only about physical differences.
I understand that the flap linkages are different,as well as the fuel line arrangement. What else? I assume that the spar attaches & the aileron linkages are the same.
What seems to be the going price for airworthy B wings?
Eric
B model wing installation
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10320
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Eric said...
Bruce, I'm interested in the installation of B-model (or Birddog?) wings on your A model. I recently posted a new topic on "the hangar" forum asking about what would be required to install B wings on my ragwing--no responses yet. I believe that the flap linkage is the same on the A as on the ragwing.
Did you do (or hire done) the wing installation, or was the airplane already so equipped when you bought it? What all was required for the wing switch? I imagine that a 337 was done detailing the changes made.
Thanks.
Eric
I almost posted to this thread a few days ago but I didn't know if the 48 model wing attached like a A model. As far as the L-19, 172 or 175 wings are concerned here is what I believe. First I should say that I bought my plane this way and there is no record of the change or what was exactly done in the logbooks I have which only go back to '55. The plane was "made legal" in 2000 when a very none descript 337 was approved for the change based on a blanket letter from Cessna outlining what wings might be a suitable replacement. I have forwarded a copy of that letter to TIC170A.
As you have already figured out the flap and associated cabling seems to be the major difference. A model flap cables run into the cabin to the center of the ceiling then down the center to the back of the baggage area. Down to the floor from there and then forward to the flap actuator assembly. The B model cables run down the rear doorpost then to the center of the floor and forward the flap actuator assembly. The Flap handle in the B model is longer. As far as I know all other attachments and fuel lines are the same between models. I have been involved with the repair/replacement of A model wings which involved repairing the flap cable runs behind the baggage area. I can't imagine some one going through the pain to change all of this to install the B model wings.
My aircraft has some indication that it once had the A model cables installed behind the baggage area but all the structure for them has been removed. The cables and pulleys installed appear to be done as the factory might but I haven't had the opportunity to study a real B model to compare.
The Cessna letter as I recall basically says that a suitable replacement wing would be any wing that came from an aircraft with the same or higher max. gross weight. Have the same area and airfoil. Have the same attachment structure i.e. single strut and have a similar flat actuator system i.e. mechanical or electric. I believe the single strut verses the 48 dual strut installation would have to be overcome in your hypothetical situation. This may be possible in Alaska but never in Pennsylvania where I live.
Interestingly in the case of my plane the FAA has no record of it prior to 1955 when the first airworthiness certificate was issued. Since the elevator has also been changed to the B model (also with no record) and the year of the aircraft (according to the FAA) is when it was certified not when manufactured. What I actually have is a 1955 B model serial number 19352 which Cessna says was made in 1950.
Maybe I have the B model prototype.
Actually what I think happened is that in the early 50's the plane was damaged. Someone stripped the damaged wings and elevator and eventually replaced them with surplus L-19 parts, which would have been cheap, and plentiful I think. At sometime, someone added to the confusion by stamping a B over the A on the data plate and the aircraft has been registered as both models by different owners.
If anyone knows anything of the history of N9149A, which at one time was owned by an oil company located in Texas then spent sometime in Florida flying skydivers before heading north to Connecticut and Pennsylvania, please let me know. I'd love to unravel the mystery.
Bruce, I'm interested in the installation of B-model (or Birddog?) wings on your A model. I recently posted a new topic on "the hangar" forum asking about what would be required to install B wings on my ragwing--no responses yet. I believe that the flap linkage is the same on the A as on the ragwing.
Did you do (or hire done) the wing installation, or was the airplane already so equipped when you bought it? What all was required for the wing switch? I imagine that a 337 was done detailing the changes made.
Thanks.
Eric
I almost posted to this thread a few days ago but I didn't know if the 48 model wing attached like a A model. As far as the L-19, 172 or 175 wings are concerned here is what I believe. First I should say that I bought my plane this way and there is no record of the change or what was exactly done in the logbooks I have which only go back to '55. The plane was "made legal" in 2000 when a very none descript 337 was approved for the change based on a blanket letter from Cessna outlining what wings might be a suitable replacement. I have forwarded a copy of that letter to TIC170A.
As you have already figured out the flap and associated cabling seems to be the major difference. A model flap cables run into the cabin to the center of the ceiling then down the center to the back of the baggage area. Down to the floor from there and then forward to the flap actuator assembly. The B model cables run down the rear doorpost then to the center of the floor and forward the flap actuator assembly. The Flap handle in the B model is longer. As far as I know all other attachments and fuel lines are the same between models. I have been involved with the repair/replacement of A model wings which involved repairing the flap cable runs behind the baggage area. I can't imagine some one going through the pain to change all of this to install the B model wings.
My aircraft has some indication that it once had the A model cables installed behind the baggage area but all the structure for them has been removed. The cables and pulleys installed appear to be done as the factory might but I haven't had the opportunity to study a real B model to compare.
The Cessna letter as I recall basically says that a suitable replacement wing would be any wing that came from an aircraft with the same or higher max. gross weight. Have the same area and airfoil. Have the same attachment structure i.e. single strut and have a similar flat actuator system i.e. mechanical or electric. I believe the single strut verses the 48 dual strut installation would have to be overcome in your hypothetical situation. This may be possible in Alaska but never in Pennsylvania where I live.
Interestingly in the case of my plane the FAA has no record of it prior to 1955 when the first airworthiness certificate was issued. Since the elevator has also been changed to the B model (also with no record) and the year of the aircraft (according to the FAA) is when it was certified not when manufactured. What I actually have is a 1955 B model serial number 19352 which Cessna says was made in 1950.
Maybe I have the B model prototype.
Actually what I think happened is that in the early 50's the plane was damaged. Someone stripped the damaged wings and elevator and eventually replaced them with surplus L-19 parts, which would have been cheap, and plentiful I think. At sometime, someone added to the confusion by stamping a B over the A on the data plate and the aircraft has been registered as both models by different owners.
If anyone knows anything of the history of N9149A, which at one time was owned by an oil company located in Texas then spent sometime in Florida flying skydivers before heading north to Connecticut and Pennsylvania, please let me know. I'd love to unravel the mystery.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
Eric
A frieng here in Payson put a 55 fuse forward section on an A Model and had to change all the pullys to get the flaps etc. to work because the new fuse was not set up for the cables coming down aft at the center. He said it was a bitch and would not do it again.
When I had my A Model in 1975 I remember I always lusted after the B for the big flaps and 180 gear. The 180 gear is to me real valuable but I'm not sure about the flaps. I remember being really good at slipping the A and seem to think I could land it just as short and just as easy as a B anyway. But that was long ago and I have not flown a small flap 170 lately.
A frieng here in Payson put a 55 fuse forward section on an A Model and had to change all the pullys to get the flaps etc. to work because the new fuse was not set up for the cables coming down aft at the center. He said it was a bitch and would not do it again.
When I had my A Model in 1975 I remember I always lusted after the B for the big flaps and 180 gear. The 180 gear is to me real valuable but I'm not sure about the flaps. I remember being really good at slipping the A and seem to think I could land it just as short and just as easy as a B anyway. But that was long ago and I have not flown a small flap 170 lately.
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Slipping in a ragwing is fine for a steep descent,but I think the Fowler type flaps are better. You can do a steep descent without the speed building too much,also you can come in straight instead of HAVING to get all crossed up. I thing the big flaps are also better for a slow,full flap,flat drag-it-in type short field approach.
The big flaps are also better for short takeoff,as they provide some lift not just drag. I do take off with half flaps in my ragwing but I don't know if that really makes a difference other than psychologically. I sometimes do the trick of pulling full flaps as the tail is starting to fly--done right,the airplane just goes up without having to rotate. But this trick doesn't work as well with the ragwing as it does with the B.
Also, I just like the looks (& durability) of the tapered,dihedralled B wing and single strut.
Like I said,this is a hypothetical situation cuz it's probably not worth the expense & trouble to do this mod--easier to just buy a B.
Eric
The big flaps are also better for short takeoff,as they provide some lift not just drag. I do take off with half flaps in my ragwing but I don't know if that really makes a difference other than psychologically. I sometimes do the trick of pulling full flaps as the tail is starting to fly--done right,the airplane just goes up without having to rotate. But this trick doesn't work as well with the ragwing as it does with the B.
Also, I just like the looks (& durability) of the tapered,dihedralled B wing and single strut.
Like I said,this is a hypothetical situation cuz it's probably not worth the expense & trouble to do this mod--easier to just buy a B.
Eric
B model wing installation
Just pick up this post from Bruce f. N9149A on Nov. 4, 2002. I would be really interested in reading the response from Cessna on the B wing installation to a 170A. e-mail jr51745@aol.com Thanks Koop N4468B. I understood you to say that you sent a copy of the Cessna letter to TIC170A?
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funseventy
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 11:46 pm
Eric,
I live in Priest River, ID and so I'm not that far away. I'd be glad to let you get some time in my '54 B and see if it would really be worth all the hassle. I will be putting it on skis for winter, if we ever get any snow. When we lived in Alaska my wife and I owned a '56 180 and a 140. I remember that in the 140 I would use full flap for take off and it really helped. It would pick the tail up faster and cut off 200' of the roll. The 140 wing is very similar, so I'd suggest playing with that. Remember to start milking them off after liftoff because there is a lot of drag. The other key to performance is weight, so watch the number of ammenities you add.
Good luck, Kelly
I live in Priest River, ID and so I'm not that far away. I'd be glad to let you get some time in my '54 B and see if it would really be worth all the hassle. I will be putting it on skis for winter, if we ever get any snow. When we lived in Alaska my wife and I owned a '56 180 and a 140. I remember that in the 140 I would use full flap for take off and it really helped. It would pick the tail up faster and cut off 200' of the roll. The 140 wing is very similar, so I'd suggest playing with that. Remember to start milking them off after liftoff because there is a lot of drag. The other key to performance is weight, so watch the number of ammenities you add.
Good luck, Kelly
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Tom Downey
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 4:50 am
RAG WING BEING DISTROYED
ERIC,
I have owned both a 48 (N2623V) and a 54, (N2801C) the rag wing is better.
I have owned both a 48 (N2623V) and a 54, (N2801C) the rag wing is better.
Tom Downey A&P-IA