What would you do? (Long)

Iceman07 · Post by **Iceman07** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:55 pm

5740C is still grounded. Here's a brief history:

Back in April, after an oil change, there was serious metal in the sample. Mechanic removes a couple of cylinders, recomends a OH. I get a qoute for a Penn Yann OH, with labor and parts, at about $30,000.00. I agree tot he OH (signed the estimate). I am told the OH will take "Between 6 and 8 weeks". I re-finance the airplane, and give my mechanic a little over $27,000.00.

The engine is removed and sent to Penn Yann the first week in June. After three or four weeks, I get the news that the crank is broken in two places, and will cost another $5,000.00. At this time (first week in July) I found a 0 SMHO 0-300D for $14,500.00. My mechanic talks me out of the enigine, saying that "we don't really know anything about this engine or the mechanic that did the OH. OK, so I give my mechanic another $5,000.00. So July goes by, no word on the engine. Everytime I ask, all I get is "We don't know anything". August goes by. Nothing. Finally, first week in September the engine is delevered to my mech. He starts to prep the airplane for installation, and in the process, finds a cracked bracket.

Without going into long boring detail, we are still waiting for the bracket from Cessna. During this time, I had asked them to replace the ELT, and a few other things.

So, now, here it is 7 months later, I have already given them almost $33,000.00, and the airplane is still in pieces.

Two weeks ago, I get a nasty-gram from the bookkeeper saying that "Unless they get another $13,000.00 within 10 days, we will not do anymore work. on the airplane". So I ask them for a detailed break-down of the work that has been done.

To make a long story short, they are estimating 290 hours labor to finish the work.

So, I told them that when the airplane is done, and I get the final detailed bill, I will pay them the total amount (I am going to have to re-finance the airplane again to pay for the repairs.)

Thier argument is that they have put a lot of hours into the airplane, they need to pay thier mechanics.

My argument is that I have already given them $33,000.00 and I have no confidence that they will have the airplane done before Spring.

Am I out of line? Should I just pull out my wallet and give them the $13,000.00?

So, the bottom line is that the work that was originally estimated to be about $35,000.00 is now over $60,000.00.

What would you do?

pif_sonic · Post by **pif_sonic** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:47 pm

This might be a little late but have you spoken to any other mechanic shops for another opinion? I think 290 hours (7 Weeks) to install an engine is a little bit much. The mechanic where I live did a complete top end (I know not really the same) but it was only 3 days start to finish.

I am not a big fan of suing anyone but in this case with the info you have stated, maybe now is the time. I would pull my plane out, take my new engine, which I have already paid for, and find another shop or mechanic. I would not let that shop touch my plane at all from this point forward. I would also make sure ever one new not to use this shop for any type of repair. Is this an FBO or just a repair shop? Are there any other mechanics near you?

I would be really pissed off at this point. You have a lot more patience than I do.

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:10 pm

What bracket are you waiting for from Cessna? You could be waiting a VERY long time.

What are the "few other things" you asked them to replace?

I would not have them do a single minute of work till they provide a detailed bill of exactly what they've done and the cost so that you understand and agree. I would also want a detailed estimate of what they plan to do and the hours and cost.

I would then take that and show it to others in the business to see if they feel it is reasonable. There are a few here that are in the maintenance business that might help you in that regard.

I don't know were you fall but many people don't understand the amount of time it takes to perform even some of the simplest tasks in airplane maintenance so perhaps you are being billed fairly for what you are asking them to perform.

On the other hand there are people out there who will take advantage of others who don't know any better.

I think you have every reason to question. This doesn't sound right from what little detail you've told us.

I don't do aircraft maintenance for a living and don't have a shop. Besides the actual overhaul I would estimate it would take a 8 hour day to remove the engine and maybe an hour or so to pack the engine for shipment. I would be shocked if it took me more than 40 hours to reinstall the engine myself when I got it from the overhauler.

And yes I have removed and reinstalled my engine in my 170 myself after I overhauled the engine myself so I do have an idea what it takes but am no expert.

I'm very sorry this hasn't gone well for you and can't believe you still don't have you plane back. It seems like years ago since we first communicated about it.

hilltop170 · Post by **hilltop170** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:27 pm

Iceman07-
I don't have it with me but I kept exact records in 2006 of the same work you are having done. It was not cheap but it wasn't $60k either. When I get back to Texas mid-Dec, I can go over my records with you item by item if you wish. My total engine o/h including new cylinders and crank was $26,000. Installation was extra but not 7 weeks worth.

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:03 am

In my non humble opinion, you are getting a really Royal Screwing. You are going to have a bill thats about twice the value of the airplane.

ak2711c · Post by **ak2711c** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:41 am

I think you are being taken advantage of. $30,000 for an OH of a 0-300 is way out of line. It should be atleast $10,000 less. Removal of the motor should only take a couple of hours, the install of the motor takes around 10-12 hours. For $60,000 you could have easily had your choice of engine upgrade done. Sorry things are working out like they are.
Shawn

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:03 am

It's not clear what additional work you've authorized them to perform, but by your description you have paid approximately $33K on an invoice you expect to run $60K. That's about half of the expected costs for the total work you describe as having authorized.
It's not unheard of to pay up to 2/3rds of anticipated costs as installments towards authorized work, and it's not necessarily bad for a shop to ask for that kind of pre-payment (although half now and the other half upon completion is more common.)
If they are giving you notice that work will stop on your authorized repairs unless payment is received ... it might be a good idea to confirm with them when the work will be completed and get them to commit to that in writing. (It's also disturbing to receive such notice from their accounting dept. unless you've already been previously advised by them that payments are due.)
In any case constant communication with them is essential to avoid misunderstandings. Also, unless you are willing to forgo getting your airplane back soon you'd probably do well to come to an agreement with them as to how much is due at what point of completion of the work...and both of you stay in communication to determine the work progress.
I'm pretty certain you'd not like them to either quit work on your airplane (leaving you to find someone else willing to finish the job .... and finding such a person who will assume such a project AND be willing to sign onff on work accomplished by someone else can be a job in itself.
You also do not want to provoke them to stop work and push your unfinished airplane out onto the ramp, chained down with a sherriff's lien against it. Keep in communication with them. Stop by frequently to see how the work is progressing. And keep a few thousand dollars behind in payments until you are certain you like the finished product. Don't let a shop talk you into paying for everything in full up front. (If they need to make payroll....that's what they have a bank for.)

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:02 pm

Maybe I'm missing something here, but who in heck appraised a Cessna C-170A high enough to do all this refinancing. In view of the average asking prices I've seen, it doesn't seem to me that, with a blown engine,
this airplane could be appraised anywhere near that kind of money, and they surely can't loan the full value.
If you add the residual value of a C-170A with a blown engine to the estimated $60,000 repair job, you have, without a doubt, the most expensive C-17A since the one Harry Delicker rebuilt.
And then you have about a $40,000 airplane according to the present market!

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:21 pm

BL, do you like throwing salt in wounds cause iceman07 sure has to be hurting.

(Though privately I wonder the same thing)

Iceman07 · Post by **Iceman07** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:48 pm

blueldr wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here, but who in heck appraised a Cessna C-170A high enough to do all this refinancing. In view of the average asking prices I've seen, it doesn't seem to me that, with a blown engine,
this airplane could be appraised anywhere near that kind of money, and they surely can't loan the full value.
If you add the residual value of a C-170A with a blown engine to the estimated $60,000 repair job, you have, without a doubt, the most expensive C-17A since the one Harry Delicker rebuilt.
And then you have about a $40,000 airplane according to the present market!

Thanks for pointing that out, Capt. Obvious!

It might be a whole different ball game, if, at the end of this nightmare, I had an airplane like Steve Jacobson's, but I'm just gonna end up with a very expensive average C-170A. (Albeit one with a Penn Yan MHO 0-300A)

As someone else has said, I've been screwed.

And yes, right now, I am trying to figure out how I'm going to pay for it.

BobK · Post by **BobK** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:08 am

Stories like this made me cringe at the thought of annuals/overhauls when I was thinking of buying a plane...

Now that I bought one, Im absolutely terrified !!!

Bob K.
Anchorage, AK

dacker · Post by **dacker** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:10 am

ICEMAN, I may have the least helpful advice... Somewhere, and I apologize for not being able to find the source, there is a list of maintenance/repair items and the estimated time required to perform these items. Perhaps if someone knows where this can be found then you can compare this to the maintenance hours that they are charging you for. In other words if the estimate is 8 hours to remove an engine, and they are charging you 48 hours, then something is definitely amiss! Obviously if they are charging you 290 hours for what you say they are, the removal and reinstallation of an engine, then you are probably being raked over the coals.

Not to throw salt on your wounds, but I did a firewall forward on mine for a little over $20K (with new Titans, and everything else inspected and/are reworked, excluding starter and alternator). Others have reported similar costs give or take $5K. I performed a lot of the removal and installation work myself under the supervision of my mechanic including time consuming things like painting the baffling and engine mount, replacing all cables, wires, baffle seal, grounds, fuel lines, exhaust system, painting the carb heat box, etc. With all this work I bet I didn't spend more that about forty hours and I by no means consider myself a mechanic anywhere near the A&P standards.

The point to my rambling is 290 hours is way past ridiculous if you are only talking about the hours involved with replacing your engine, I believe most of us agree with this.

So, going back to my original suggestion... if anyone can remember where these time estimates can be found, perhaps you can relay it to Iceman for some more ammunition.

Good luck with your battle!
David

Mark Harwood · Post by **Mark Harwood** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:13 am

I was going through this just a year ago. The FBO repair shop I used installed the engine, new mufflers, repaired and replaced engine baffling,changed location of muffler holes in cowl,replaced lower rudder skins, replaced rudder bellcrank,Repaired flap locks, put repair kit on rear wing spar and did the annual. I do not have my paper work handy but I believe The labor bill was around $5000. At the time the rate was $60 which means they had a little over 80 hours in it. It sounds like you are being taken advantage of. If I were you, I would get my plane and new engine to another shop. For that kind of money you could have had the 180 hp mod. Mark

Robert Eilers · Post by **Robert Eilers** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:15 am

Airplanes are like sweethearts - they can break your heart. But, also like sweethearts, the reconciliation is a beautiful thing. I am sure when all is said and done and the worst is over Iceman will love his 170, and it sounds like he will have a very nice one. One perfect Sunday afternoon when he is alone in the cockpit and the airplane is performing perfectly all the difficulty will be forgotten. Resale value has nothing to do with the true value of a classic airplane.

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:23 am

When they said they needed 290 hours to finish the job, didn't it occur to you that a blind, one armed mechanic should be able to do that job in less than seven weeks? I feel sorry for your misfortune, but I can't immagine spending that kind of money without at least getting some other bids.
I've been working on all kinds of airplanes for over sixty years, so I have
had a certain amount of previous experience. I strongly suspect that on the day your estimate went out from Penn Yan, the boss there received a notice about his overdue boat payment. I can't immagine any way an overhaul of an O-300 engine can cost that kind of money. I also think that the shop or mechanic that is doing the other work is either incredibly inept or just plain crooked.
I think you should get your airplane out of that shop right now.