The International Cessna 170 Association

I am looking to lease a Cessna 170B for flight instruction giving tailwheel endorsements.

In order to put the deal together, I need to calculate realistic maintenance and inspection costs. Can anyone give me some idea what I will spend an hour or year for maintenance and inspections? It is a 1953 model that has been recently restored and has 29 hours on the engine.

Thanks!

$1,000. Unless you fly it more than 100 hours. Then it'll add $500 per 100 hours.

Good rule of thumb for total per-hour costs: Double the hourly fuel costs. I.E.- at $5/gallon, 8 gph, 100 hrs per year, that's $4K for fuel, and $4K for mx, hangar, insurance. (Ovbiously local hangar and insurance rates can be very individualized/local.) but it's a ball-park.

Another way to say it: Fuel is only half the cost of ownership of a healthy airplane. A junker will cost more. Lots more. (Another reason it's better to buy the best-condition airplane you can afford.)

My airplane is healthy. (Bought it after a tip-top restoration by someone else.)
I've put 500 hours on it in 8 years. Last year only flew it 40 hours. Just finished the annual.

$200 for the assisted annual fee (your mileage probably will vary-Avg annual insp. fee: $750.)
$370 for parts.
$120 for additional repairs

Plus 6 days of my own time doing most of the actual work.

This means I spent $1600 for fuel, and $690 for insp/svc. If I didn't have a sweet deal with my IA, I'd probably spent $1410 for insp/svc. ($750, $370, $240) My insurance is $1300/yr and my hangar is zero. (Own my hangar as part of my home. None of this discussion considers the mid-year oil change which costs about $50.) So my total costs this year was $3010 for 40 hrs flying.) Obviously, the more you fly the less each hour costs per hour, but the greater the total costs.

I figure a healthy 170 will cost about $80/hour to operate.

djmead wrote:I am looking to lease a Cessna 170B for flight instruction giving tailwheel endorsements.

In order to put the deal together, I need to calculate realistic maintenance and inspection costs. Can anyone give me some idea what I will spend an hour or year for maintenance and inspections? It is a 1953 model that has been recently restored and has 29 hours on the engine.

Thanks!

If you are going to lease it from the owner I would think he/she would know that.

$1200 the first annual, and then about $800 each year after that.
"Realistic maintenance inspection costs" should probably be called optimistic maintenance and inspection costs. If nothing ever breaks and you use the same mechanic I would expect him to spend several hours more going over AD compliance etc. as well as the fist annual inspection hence the $1200 after that if he's kept decent records of the planes he works on he'll know it and the inspection will take less time.

The reality though is that airplane is over half a century old and there's no telling what is going to need fixing, that could be nothing for the time that you are leasing it or you could find out six months into it that there are some spendy things that need fixed.

From a business perspective I would investigate the possibility of a new plane like a American Champion 7ECA and how I could write off various expenses, interest, depreciation etc.

When you are considering an aircraft for flight instruction its is always a good practice to compare the insurance costs for different models of aircraft. Some aircraft have a bad reputation and may cost considerably more per year to insure (for teaching purposes).

gahorn wrote:Good rule of thumb for total per-hour costs: Double the hourly fuel costs. I.E.- at $5/gallon, 8 gph, 100 hrs per year, that's $4K for fuel, and $4K for mx, hangar, insurance. (Ovbiously local hangar and insurance rates can be very individualized/local.) but it's a ball-park.

Another way to say it: Fuel is only half the cost of ownership of a healthy airplane. A junker will cost more. Lots more. (Another reason it's better to buy the best-condition airplane you can afford.)

I figure a healthy 170 will cost about $80/hour to operate.

I second this estimate, except that I would consider the fixed costs separately from the hourly costs. At one time I was treasurer of a flying club with a J-3 and C-150, and over the course of several years, the cost of actual mx plus engine overhaul allowances ran about equal to the cost of fuel. We considered hangar and insurance fixed costs over and above hourly operating costs. We spread the fixed costs across all members whether they flew or not, then charged roughly twice the fuel cost per hour for flying. If you don't charge a fixed fee for "access" to the airplane, you might want factor in a bit extra per hour to cover the fixed costs.

(I haven't ever added up the cost of owning my 170 in the 26 years I've owned it... I REALLY don't want to know. )

Miles

Renting vs Owning

There is only one reason to own an airplane, "I want one, I happen to be able to afford one, so therefor I have one", other than those reasons don't try to justify it as "I am saving money over renting", the costs of ownership can not be factored into the reason for having one, if that were true, my costs would be this.....

1. Hanger payment, $19,200.00 year
2. Hanger insurance, $700.00 year
3. Condo payment (Hanger Association) $1200.00 year
4. Airport access fee, $192.00 year
5. Airplane Insurance, $ 1200.00 year
6. Annual $1500.00 - 3000.00 year
7. Reserves, $30.00 per hour x 100 hrs a year $3000.00
8. Fuel 100 hrs x 8 gals hr x $5.35 $4280.00
9. Special assesment for taxi way repaving (Condo fees one time)$2500.00
10. Special assesment for easment land to access runway, one time (Condo fees one time) $1200.00

Total cost this year to own: $35,472.00

RENTING:
Positives:
Renting may be easier on the pocket book than owning.
Negatives: Only can get an airplane when one is avaialble, and then maybe only for an hour or two.

OWNING:
Positives:
Can go when I want, come back when I want.
Negatives:
See list above.
Positives: Who cares about the list, See quote above:

"I want one, I happen to be able to afford one, so therefor I have one", other than those reasons don't try to justify it as "I am saving money over renting by owning",

PS: I for got to add State and local taxes to all of that!....... DAMN!
PPS: Do hamburgers still only cost $100.00?

Hamburgers still cost about $100 if you drive from the airport where you are hangared to the nearest burger joint. Otherwise we definitely don't want to know what they cost

I just added up my cost to fly last year (hangar rent, annual, repairs, insurance) and assuming I fly 70 hours this year I’m looking at around $100 per hour. That does not include fuel or reserves.

I can rent a 172 for $99 per hour or a J-5A Cub for $85 per hour at my local airport and that includes fuel. However I would not have a hangar to hang out in Saturday mornings or a cool “shop” to work on my cars and motorcycles - not to mention a place to store all the junk my wife does not want in our garage.

For me the real advantage of having my own plane is I’m encouraged to fly more often. I can swing by the airport on my way home from work and go for a 30 minute flight for around $20 - fuel is still under $5 per gallon. I don’t mind spending $20. If on the other hand I was renting, I would need to call the airport before I left work. Due to the extra trouble I would probably want to stay up for close to an hour which would cost around $100. The added trouble and cost would cause me to skip most flights. I would eventually end up like most of the pilots I meet who tell me they have not flown in 20 years.

I'm glad I live where I do.
Fuel is fuel your plane or mine
Hangar rent $900.00/year (can't own one for that)
insurance $800.00/year full coverage

If you fly more than 50 hours around here it's better to own than rent.

the airport is about 200 yd from where I work, walked over Monday after work flew for 1/2 hour and still got home b/4 the wife....cool eh

Showboatsix wrote:There is only one reason to own an airplane, "I want one, I happen to be able to afford one, so therefor I have one", other than those reasons don't try to justify it as "I am saving money over renting", ...

Seen on the bulletin board in my office: "Aircraft ownership is an incurable form of madness for which there is no known cure, so quit bi....ing and just write the check!" Author Unknown

Miles

Showboatsix apparently lives in Oregon, which is known to be a notoriously expensive place. Fortunately, I happen to live in California where it is the epitome of economic living the good life. (If you have any doubt about that statement, just ask our legislators!)
Sam, (Uncle, that is) comes by my place on the last day of the month, every month, and has done so since 1942. He graciously leaves me a modest check, for services previously rendered, for which I am ever so grateful. Please note that I do refer to the check as being modest but adequate.
If I had to put out the $35k annually that Showboatsix mentions to keep an airplane, I sure as hell would have to find a different hobby in one helluva hurry, particularly if I wanted to continue eating.
I have not ever really computed my annual aviation costs, but suffice to say, $35k would be well beyond my financial means. I own my hangar on a small semi rural, uncontrolled, airport. I'm sure it would be VERY much more expensive in, or near, a big city. I do all my own maintenance and normally used to fly about 150 to 200 hours a year on mogas. I pay a monthly ground lease and a quarterly electric bill to the airport which is owned by the county. I pay the county an annual tax on the land I use and a personal property tax on the hangar and the airplane. On insurance, it is my choice to go naked.
Under the circumstances, I don't have to sacrifice much to play aviator. I do, however, drink domestic beer. Sometimes I yearn for the exotic imports!

blueldr,

The wife is out of town this weekend and I am considering flying some where for breakfast Saturday morning. If you have the time and are interested in joining me for breakfast some where let me know. I am flying out of KLVK - Auburne, Petaluma, Willows, Halfmoon Bay? Whichever you prefer - if you have a favorite I haven't mentioned let me know. I'd like to meet you.

Yep, .... the costs are real, I love the plane, love flying, it is just the cost of flying.

I guess that it is sorta like Obama blowing $650 million (so far) to get elected to a job that pays $400K a year........ one big difference though.... It is MY money that I am spending on my plane...... not the American people's!

I sure "HOPE" I can afford it in 2009!!!!!!!!!

I'd hate to have to stand at a freeway entrance with a sign that says "NEED MONEY FOR AIRPLANE GAS, PLEASE HELP

Robert Eilers,

Check your PMs

Blueldr

The BIG difference in what you write and the truth is: The money is not the American people's. It's donated by those who actively support him. McCain is spending the American people's money. (Obama opted out of public financing for his campaign.)

Obama opted out so he can spend what he wants, how he wants. We will have to see, with the help of a Democratic House and Senate, if that continues once he is elected.