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Repairs coming

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:52 pm
by W.J.Langholz
I will be replacing some cylinders shortly and as I look things over I need to drop the exhaust off also and I notice I may need some gaskets. Any recomendations as to style...ie: solid, solid copper, spiral wound, or the double gasket from Airborne?

Also If I need to replace some of the stacks where would I go to find those?

W.

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:21 pm
by GAHorn
Spiral wound. Use new stainless hardware. Knisely in CA, or AWI (Aerospace Welding Inc) in MN.

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:49 pm
by cessna170bdriver
gahorn wrote:Spiral wound. Use new stainless hardware. Knisely in CA, or AWI (Aerospace Welding Inc) in MN.
George,
I totally agree with the spiral wound exhaust gaskets. They are the only ones I've ever had to last more than a few hours.
Specifically, what are you referring to as "hardware"? Yes, the AN3 bolts, nuts and washers that clamp the mufflers to the exhaust risers (stacks) DO need to be stainless. However, the nuts that hold the risers to the cylinders need to be brass. I don't have the IPC in front of me, but there is a specific part number called out for these.

Miles

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:36 pm
by GAHorn
Yes, I was referring to the clamp hardware. I made a parts listing of all these parts some time ago if a search is made for it. There actually are some hi-temp inconel nuts that are good for the riser-to-cylinder flange, but they are not necessary and they risk damaging the studs if overtorqued. The brass ones are safe to use. (They'll ususally strip before damaging anything else, but also be aware that the studs are replaceable and if questionable, it's far better to install new ones that break one off in the cylinder. Use a collet to remove old ones before they break off.)

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:06 pm
by W.J.Langholz
gahorn wrote:Yes, I was referring to the clamp hardware. I made a parts listing of all these parts some time ago if a search is made for it. There actually are some hi-temp inconel nuts that are good for the riser-to-cylinder flange, but they are not necessary and they risk damaging the studs if overtorqued. The brass ones are safe to use. (They'll ususally strip before damaging anything else, but also be aware that the studs are replaceable and if questionable, it's far better to install new ones that break one off in the cylinder. Use a collet to remove old ones before they break off.)
George

Can you be a little more specific on you parts list thread.....exhaust, exhaust list, exhaust parts list, alot of stuff comes up

Willie

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:21 pm
by GAHorn
I posted at another msg thread:

The best gaskets for the exhaust riser to cylinder flange are the spiral-wound types. The official PN is: RA-627429 (RapCo brand) available from Spruce 877-477-7823. The Superior PN is SA 627429. Don't be surprised to find it necessary to grind a little excess flange material off the gaskets to slip them on without interference from the adjacent intake elbow. (Avoid the "oreo" types and the flat copper types because they don't stand up.) If you replace one, consider replacing them all on the same side of the engine because their additional thickness may make it difficult to re-fit the muffler to all the risers simultaneously. (A thicker gasket flange will drop the other end of that riser enough to make a difference.)
If you wait too long the cylinder flange will erode to the point it will never seal without cyl. removal and welding/re-machining.
) Use new exhaust nuts (Spruce PN 22022) when removing/installing the exhaust risers. (Just for convenience, here's the PN's for the clamp hardware also: (AN363C-1032 nuts, AN960C10 washers and AN3C-4A bolts)
If your risers are so worn their flanges are bowed, you should consider replacing them with new ones from Knisely Exhaust, Loomis, California (800-522-6990 or 916-652-5891) who makes them with nice thick flanges.
The risers are Pn’s 0550157-7 for the short straight ones (4 req’d each engine) and 0550157-8 for the longer curved ones (2 req’d each engine).

http://www.cessna170.org/forums/viewtop ... +pn#p10080

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:16 am
by W.J.Langholz
Thanks George that saved me alot of time. That thread dated 2004......as noticed a little farther down the thread it was the year of your original "Nut" award!!!!!!!! :D I mean 170B award.....
I first typed in "exhaust" and 68 threads come up............
Thanks again George!

W.

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:32 pm
by Bill Hart
You guy's are talking B model I know but this brings an issue I have on my A model. I couldn't get the spiral wound gaskets to fit and the flat solid ones leak like crazy. I think that I need to take my mufflers off and put on a straight edge to see if the flanges are straight. I am worried about what I might find does any one know where I can get my pancake style exhaust repaired or replaced?

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:01 pm
by W.J.Langholz
gahorn wrote:I posted at another msg thread:

The best gaskets for the exhaust riser to cylinder flange are the spiral-wound types. The official PN is: RA-627429 (RapCo brand) available from Spruce 877-477-7823. The Superior PN is SA 627429. Don't be surprised to find it necessary to grind a little excess flange material off the gaskets to slip them on without interference from the adjacent intake elbow. (Avoid the "oreo" types and the flat copper types because they don't stand up.) If you replace one, consider replacing them all on the same side of the engine because their additional thickness may make it difficult to re-fit the muffler to all the risers simultaneously. (A thicker gasket flange will drop the other end of that riser enough to make a difference.)
http://www.cessna170.org/forums/viewtop ... +pn#p10080
Bill

Note George's comment on the grinding of the gaskets above. I finished mine last Saturday and I did have to grind several gaskets to get them in place to fit properly. I also had access to a table grinder so I did a little touch up and leveled out the stack flange, Mine were the thick flanges so I could do it. You may need new stacks.

W.

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:11 pm
by Bill Hart
That is my next option to try and grind them down but just by looking it is going to take some significant grinding.

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:16 pm
by GAHorn
The spiral-wound gaskets are contained within an outer-circumferential stamped-steel framework, which must be "ground' at it's edge where it interferes with adjacent cylinder structure and/or intake elbow. It's not a lot, and it can be done with a bench grinder by hand,... no need for a fixture.
Grind only enough to provide clearance, of course.

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:22 pm
by Bill Hart
George,

I know what you are talking and thought about doing that in the past and will try as I have a ton of the things around(yes new) but it sure looks like I will have to take off quire a bit if I hold up the flat one on the spiral one. I'll post a reply I might get a hall pass tonight and make it out to the airport.

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:33 am
by PilotMikeTX
For what it's worth, I had my exhaust OH'd a couple of years ago by AWI and I was less than 100% satisfied. Mostly with the workmanship on the shrouds. They looked like they were done by high school shop students. And not the good students, either. More like the ones who hung out behind the field house smoking and only showed up on test day. The holes for the risers were too small and they neglected to put the nut plates/tinermans on.

They also sent back a bunch of crappy, rusty hardware that they should have replaced. I guess they thought I was one of those cheap guys who'd spend $1500 on an exhaust overhaul, but didn't want to spend an extra $10 on some new nuts and bolts. I'm sure they would have corrected those issues if I'd pressed them on it, but I was trying to finish the annual and finish moving so the parts came out of the box and went on the plane. The mufflers looked great and everything fit, so I guess it could have been worse. Still just left a sour taste in my mouth, so to speak. I just don't like when people don't pay attention to detail, even if it's "just" a shroud. At any rate, everthing works and no signs of any leaks so all's well that ends well, I guess.

Oh, the risers and slip joint clamps all came from Knisley, so they may be the only ones fabricating them anymore. Might just be easier to go with them.

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:03 pm
by GAHorn
I am sorry that happened to you. I plan to call AWI and complain, because I've given them high marks in the past. By the way, there are TWO facilities that are associated with that name. I deal only with the facility in Minnesota. Charlie Felds is my contact up there. Here's what happened when I had them do some work:

I had an original Hanlon-Wilson exhaust system in great condition except, my RH muffler shroud showed a few cracks due to vibration. Nothing sufficient to take it out of service however, and I had no intentions of doing anything about it for quite some time. No inspector had even the slightest concern about it, as the cracks were at the edges at the screw holes and no danger exists for this situation. The shrouds may have been good forever. It was a nice shroud actually, still showing it's bright-work of engine-turned polishing, and stainless Hanlon-Wilson datatag spot-welded onto it.

But I was talking to AWI and attempting to get them to donate an exhaust system as part of my Kelowna-convention Maintenance seminar, and Charlie Felds mentioned the problems they were having with certain replacement parts, notably converting "pancakes" to Hanlon-Wilson style. I began working with them to develop that conversion kit, when other difficult-to-obtain parts came up in conversation. Charlie mentioned the RH heater shroud for '53 and later airplanes. (For those of you who don't know, the '53 and later RH muffler and shroud have several significant differences than the LH does. Early model owners ('52 and previous) are not concerned with this, nor are pancake-to-H/W conversions.)

What was planned:
Charlie said he had no way to make a RH heater shroud because he had no model. I offered to send him mine, if he'd make one for us. (I now believe my offer was not sufficiently well-expressed to Charlie. It was my intent to let him use my perfectly serviceable heater shroud as a model, in return for him making a spare....which I planned to donate to TIC170A.... and returning mine to me for reinstallation.)

What transpired:
I remove mine and shipped it to him and a couple of weeks passed.
Charlie called me to tell me the shroud was completed and ready for shipment to me, and he wanted to tell me that he was including a small bag of Tinnerman nuts with the new one for attachment purposes. I told him that it was not likely to be acceptable to have separate Tinnerman nuts for mounting that shroud due to the "blind" nature of the re-isntallaiton. (There was no convenient way to hold the flat, internally-fitted Tinnermans in place while mounting the shroud.) I insisted that they be spot-welded in-place for the shroud to be useful. (At this point I was thinking about the recipient of the donated new shroud, and how bewildered they'd be if they received a shroud that couldn't be mounted in a simple replacement-action.)
Charlie expressed concern about the technical difficulties of a spot-welding operation, but he agreed to attempt it.

What resulted:
I received the shipment and opened the box to find only one shroud,... the newly mfr'd one... and not including my "model". The new shroud was made of a very-slightly heavier gauge stainless sheet-metal, and was very well-made. I was very happy with the workmanship, and called AWI to tell them so, and inquire as to when my original would be returned as my airplane was grounded until it arrived. I did not talk to Charlie, but talked instead to "Tom", who informed me that my original was destroyed in the manufacturing process and that my new shroud would be followed with an invoice for $240 plus shipping. 8O
Clearly, something had been missed in the original communication. Here I was thinking I was helping a company who could serve the owners out there, but what happened was the company apparently thought I was ordering a new shroud for my personal airplane.
And, the replacement shroud did not have the H/W datatag attached.

I blame myself for not being more clear and for using verbal instead of written communications in setting up this transaction. I do not blame AWI or Charlie Felds for misunderstanding my purpose of submitting my shroud to them. After-all, they actually are in the business of making "owner-produced-parts" by reverse-engineering our exhaust systems, which is why they need a model... And THAT is why my original part could not be returned to me. So, I took it upon myself to accept the blame for poor communications.

AWI did subsequently come thru and donate an entire system to TIC170A, and it was a beautiful system that was donated. It raised good money for our association, and it provided a much-needed, quality exhaust system for our winning member. But it cost me personally, two and a half C-notes. I was then, and still am disappointed that the true intent of the excersize was lost during the process, even tho' I accept the blame as the root-cause of that misunderstanding. (My recent article in The 170 News makes communication with mx facilities a central issue. Now, I always carry in my hand to the shop a written list describing the work to be accomplished, and it includes a description of the criteria by which the results will be judged. In that 170 News article, I presented the shop with my written request itemizing the work to be performed, and describing the quality expected of the completed project. As it turned out, the shop in that article was not the shop that needed such specific direction... their work ethic is definitely up to the tasks they undertake... but most shops need such specific direction, and all shops occasionally need it. So do it! Every time! Verbal communication alone does not reliably work.)

Bottom line:
In fairness to AWI and Charlie, they did make a really fine, well-fitting heater shroud. But only after I insisted upon their making it exactly as the removed shroud. (The Tinnermans had to be spot-welded to my satisfaction, and they did so at my insistence. The resulting shroud was very good.) The H/W datatag was returned to me after I called and asked for it. (Needless to say, it is not spot-welded onto the shroud, to my minor disappointment.)
I think AWI is a shop that is capable of excellent work... but you may have to be very clear and very specific in your order for your "owner-produced" parts. (And if it's important to you, remember that loose Tinnermans are not an exact-copy of a reverse-engineered part. Each annual inspection will likely cause you irritation as that shroud is removed/inspected/reinstalled.... or, to possible error, not inspected at all because the inspector doesn't want to deal with those loose Tinnermans. :evil:

You might want to call AWI and complain and insist they spot-weld those. While you're at it, remember this: YOU, as the owner, are responsible for the final quality-control in any scheme where you have participated in an "Owner Produced Part". If that part does not meet the original design in every significant and functional respect, then the owner is likely to be held accountable in any untoward event.

Re: Repairs coming

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:49 pm
by blueldr
George,
Your comment about written oders reminded me of when I worked for Lockheed back before WWII. At each work station was a writing pad with the letters
"A N V O" across the top. (Accept No Verbal Orders)