Not that I would ever consider doing that with Sally, but some had showed interest in past posts, so here goes:
RAA Canada was represented at the January 14, 2003 session of the CARAC meetings in Ottawa. Treasurer Bill Weir and I attended to discuss the proposed amendments to the CARS that deal with Owner Maintenance Aircraft. Don Sherritt of Transport Canada chaired the meeting at which the text of the list of Owner Maintained Aircraft was to be amended. This amendment will add the following aircraft.
Bellanca 14-19
Cessna 150 150F 150G
Cessna 170 170B
Cessna 172
Cessna 175A
Cessna 177
Stinson 108, 108-,1 108-2, 108-3
Note! THIS LIST IS SPECIFIC TO THE MODEL LISTED. For example, Cessna 172 does NOT mean also Cessna 172 with a letter suffix.
Read more at: http://mail.raa.ca/mailman/listinfo/announce
Owner Maintenance Category
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Well, there is one REAL good reason to move to Canada. If the FAA could ever be pursuaded to do something logical like this for us, I'd be jumping up and down and giggling so hard and doing high fives in the air that I'd probably have a heart attack.
So here is a question....you know a lot of companies register their ships under the Liberian flag for economic reasons? Would it be....just thinking here.....possible for a US citizen living in the US to register a 170 in Canada and keep it in the US? I suspect not, but just want to turn over the stone and see.
You might not do that to Sally....but if it ever happens here, I'll be the first in line to put old "whats her name" into the owner maintained category...and I'll have a DOUBLE laugh in front of the guys at the airport as I fill her up with my precious $1.35 mogas! Wooowee the stuff good dreams are made of!
So here is a question....you know a lot of companies register their ships under the Liberian flag for economic reasons? Would it be....just thinking here.....possible for a US citizen living in the US to register a 170 in Canada and keep it in the US? I suspect not, but just want to turn over the stone and see.
You might not do that to Sally....but if it ever happens here, I'll be the first in line to put old "whats her name" into the owner maintained category...and I'll have a DOUBLE laugh in front of the guys at the airport as I fill her up with my precious $1.35 mogas! Wooowee the stuff good dreams are made of!
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
If I understand the Canadian rules correctly, once you put an aircraft
in the "owner maintained" category, it can *never* go back to a normal
category aircraft. If you're going to keep your 170 for the rest of your
life (and don't give a hoot about resalve value), I agree the owner maintained
route sounds like a fantastic way to go. If however you think you might
sell your 170 some day, I would think an owner maintained example would
garner less value in a given market than a normal category one.
Just my $.02 worth....
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
in the "owner maintained" category, it can *never* go back to a normal
category aircraft. If you're going to keep your 170 for the rest of your
life (and don't give a hoot about resalve value), I agree the owner maintained
route sounds like a fantastic way to go. If however you think you might
sell your 170 some day, I would think an owner maintained example would
garner less value in a given market than a normal category one.
Just my $.02 worth....
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
In order to register the aircraft in a foreign registry, you'll have to perform an "export" inspection that must be signed off by a DAR. (State Department rules)
Then you'll have to import the aircraft to the new country of registry (and pay any customs on it), then you'll have to perform an "import" inspection for the new country registry, and you'll have to license it, and install the new registration numbers.
Then, in order to fly it, you'll have to obtain a pilot's license from the country of registry to fly it.
In many cases you'll no longer be enabled to perform simple annual inspections but must perform only maintenance and inspections in accordance with the factory program. (Factory programs frequently don't let you fly an engine to or past TBO, but require you to overhaul it at the end of the recommended chronological time. If you have an engine that the TBO was 1800 hours or 12 years, then the fact it has only 800 hours on it doesn't mean a thing when it's 12 years since the last overhaul....you'll have to do it again.)
All is not always simple.
Then you'll have to import the aircraft to the new country of registry (and pay any customs on it), then you'll have to perform an "import" inspection for the new country registry, and you'll have to license it, and install the new registration numbers.
Then, in order to fly it, you'll have to obtain a pilot's license from the country of registry to fly it.
In many cases you'll no longer be enabled to perform simple annual inspections but must perform only maintenance and inspections in accordance with the factory program. (Factory programs frequently don't let you fly an engine to or past TBO, but require you to overhaul it at the end of the recommended chronological time. If you have an engine that the TBO was 1800 hours or 12 years, then the fact it has only 800 hours on it doesn't mean a thing when it's 12 years since the last overhaul....you'll have to do it again.)
All is not always simple.
This is what I know of the program that may change your mind a little. You could go back to normal category, BUT, only after the whole plane has been re-inspected by the D.O.T., every single bit, part and parcel of the plane, and new books issued, etc. It is tougher than taking a private use aircraft and make it a commercial aircraft, as if the plane came out of the factory; i/e: not an economical thing to do.
You cannot fly an owner maintenance registered aircraft into thhe US as of yet; COPA and EAA are working on that.
George is right about the registration process; 1st de-register (including export inspection), then import inspection (can be long and expensive). You would have to have a "base" (meaning you have to pay rent there) in Canada, Canadian insurance allowing you to fly in the US, etc...
I have a couple of friends who put their Taylorcrafts into that category, they love it, cause they can do things like install a O-200, automotive instruments, swap gear, do repairs and fabric themselves, etc. without too muchh hassle (there still is paperwork). A couple of friends with Stionsons are happier than pigs in slop, cause they can trash their 150 or 165 HP Franklins to drop something else in...
It is said that for some aircafts, the value does not change much annd will keep, similar to a "good" homebuilt. Like Taylorcrafts, Champs, etc. But for other planes like a PA12, 170's, 120-140's, etc. It would greatly devalue the plane and one thing for sure, it will not apreciate from year to year.
For more details, you can check out: http://www.copanational.org/
Go to the owner maintenance rubrics.
My two cents,
JD
You cannot fly an owner maintenance registered aircraft into thhe US as of yet; COPA and EAA are working on that.
George is right about the registration process; 1st de-register (including export inspection), then import inspection (can be long and expensive). You would have to have a "base" (meaning you have to pay rent there) in Canada, Canadian insurance allowing you to fly in the US, etc...
I have a couple of friends who put their Taylorcrafts into that category, they love it, cause they can do things like install a O-200, automotive instruments, swap gear, do repairs and fabric themselves, etc. without too muchh hassle (there still is paperwork). A couple of friends with Stionsons are happier than pigs in slop, cause they can trash their 150 or 165 HP Franklins to drop something else in...
It is said that for some aircafts, the value does not change much annd will keep, similar to a "good" homebuilt. Like Taylorcrafts, Champs, etc. But for other planes like a PA12, 170's, 120-140's, etc. It would greatly devalue the plane and one thing for sure, it will not apreciate from year to year.
For more details, you can check out: http://www.copanational.org/
Go to the owner maintenance rubrics.
My two cents,
JD
-
zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
I was gonna bring up the "return to normal category" issue,but it looks like it's been pretty well covered. As far as re-registering as Canadian, I know of a couple guys who've bought Canadian planes & brought them to the US. The import/compliance inspection process can be a real dog & pony show. Bela could probably tell us a little about that.
I don't know about taking a US airplane to Canada,it's probably just as bad or maybe worse. A guy I know just bought a Canadian Swift,he's having to do some 337's as part of the import process. These are for mods which are pretty much standard for Swifts--P51-style gear doors,C-145 engine,C-150 seats-- for which the previous owner never did the Transport Canada paperwork. The new owner told me that there is like a $700 fee for filing a 337 (or equivalent) up there. JDH could probably tell us more about that.
And what about insurance coverage? Will an insurance carrier cover an airplane which is owner-maintained,other than an amateur-built and/or experimental? As long as your airplane doesn't look like an death-trap, I doubt that you would ever be caught if you did all your own maintenance and neglected to have the annual inspections done by an IA. Just don't get in an accident.........and be prepared to take a big hit if you ever sell it.
Eric
I don't know about taking a US airplane to Canada,it's probably just as bad or maybe worse. A guy I know just bought a Canadian Swift,he's having to do some 337's as part of the import process. These are for mods which are pretty much standard for Swifts--P51-style gear doors,C-145 engine,C-150 seats-- for which the previous owner never did the Transport Canada paperwork. The new owner told me that there is like a $700 fee for filing a 337 (or equivalent) up there. JDH could probably tell us more about that.
And what about insurance coverage? Will an insurance carrier cover an airplane which is owner-maintained,other than an amateur-built and/or experimental? As long as your airplane doesn't look like an death-trap, I doubt that you would ever be caught if you did all your own maintenance and neglected to have the annual inspections done by an IA. Just don't get in an accident.........and be prepared to take a big hit if you ever sell it.
Eric
I'll never do it again (import an aircraft from Canada to the U.S.)!!!
<grins>
Fortunately for me, my IA is a good friend of mine. If I would have
had to pay someone by the hour to fix what was wrong with the
airplane 1st, then do all the legwork/paperwork getting 337s for
the dozen or so undocumented mods on the aircraft, jousting
with the FAA DAR guy (who was actually a pretty cool guy for
an FAA dude...).... I could have bought a passable U.S. registered
C-180 for the same amount of money. Another fortunate thing for
me is my IA has a fantastic working relationship with our local FSDO,
so what could have been a real bear (a bazzillion 337s, etc.) actually
turned out to be a breeze.
I've been "paying" my IA back with my labor (he has a '54 C-180
complete ground-up restoration project).
In any event, I'm no expert, but here's what I found:
You can try to get an Export C of A for a Canadian aircraft
by paying a facility up there in Canada to do all the work. The
export C of A basically says/proves to the FAA that the aircraft meets
all applicable FAA airworthiness standards per the Type Certificate
sheet. I tried to do this, but those Canadian guys had the same problem
my IA did.... namely, what to do about the dozen or so mods on the airplane for which there was no paperwork.
The short "how to" list is:
- Perform a title search in Canada (no small task! Each province has it's own rules/entities to deal with).
- Export C of A (if you want to, or can go that route) or Pre-purchase
inspection.
- Deregister the A/C in Canada (FAA *should* get notified of this)
- Ferry the thing home on a ferry permit.
- Send in FAA forms 8050-2 (Bill of Sale) and 8050-1 (A/C Registration)
- Do your paperwork/homework (A/C must meet the T/C sheet to a "T")
- Submit all applicable 337s to the local FSDO for approval.
- Schedule (and pay for) a Conformity Inspection by an FAA DAR.
If you've done your homework/paperwork properly, you get a U.S. C of A.
The above proves the old saying that neither money, nor fuel,
nor physics makes an airplane fly... Paperwork does!
I can only imagine what kind of a wrench an "Owner Maintained"
Canadian aircraft would throw into the works!
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
<grins>
Fortunately for me, my IA is a good friend of mine. If I would have
had to pay someone by the hour to fix what was wrong with the
airplane 1st, then do all the legwork/paperwork getting 337s for
the dozen or so undocumented mods on the aircraft, jousting
with the FAA DAR guy (who was actually a pretty cool guy for
an FAA dude...).... I could have bought a passable U.S. registered
C-180 for the same amount of money. Another fortunate thing for
me is my IA has a fantastic working relationship with our local FSDO,
so what could have been a real bear (a bazzillion 337s, etc.) actually
turned out to be a breeze.
I've been "paying" my IA back with my labor (he has a '54 C-180
complete ground-up restoration project).
In any event, I'm no expert, but here's what I found:
You can try to get an Export C of A for a Canadian aircraft
by paying a facility up there in Canada to do all the work. The
export C of A basically says/proves to the FAA that the aircraft meets
all applicable FAA airworthiness standards per the Type Certificate
sheet. I tried to do this, but those Canadian guys had the same problem
my IA did.... namely, what to do about the dozen or so mods on the airplane for which there was no paperwork.
The short "how to" list is:
- Perform a title search in Canada (no small task! Each province has it's own rules/entities to deal with).
- Export C of A (if you want to, or can go that route) or Pre-purchase
inspection.
- Deregister the A/C in Canada (FAA *should* get notified of this)
- Ferry the thing home on a ferry permit.
- Send in FAA forms 8050-2 (Bill of Sale) and 8050-1 (A/C Registration)
- Do your paperwork/homework (A/C must meet the T/C sheet to a "T")
- Submit all applicable 337s to the local FSDO for approval.
- Schedule (and pay for) a Conformity Inspection by an FAA DAR.
If you've done your homework/paperwork properly, you get a U.S. C of A.
The above proves the old saying that neither money, nor fuel,
nor physics makes an airplane fly... Paperwork does!
I can only imagine what kind of a wrench an "Owner Maintained"
Canadian aircraft would throw into the works!
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
I think I will side with Eric on this issue. I just brought up the registration stuff to turn over the rock so to speak. As for reduced value on resale of an owner maintained aircraft...that would...at least for me depend upon the type of person who did the MX work and what my own inspection of the aircraft reveals. As an example, if someone bought an airplane from me that I have been legally allowed to maintain...they would get one heck of a good airplane, as I love to work on my machines and keep them in top condition. I've bought used cars at good prices that many folks would not consider, as I could easily go in and correct some goofs the previous owner had done. Since it is not likely that we will see an "owner maintained" category here in the US, it is all a moot point.
I do think Eric has the right idea. If someone can do his or her own good mechanical work, and does not get into a big incident where the logs are really checked over good, then they could get by for years and years without anything other than the "paper" annual from a cooperative A&P to keep everything legal. Logs are the problem with me. I like to keep super detailed logs on all my machines, be them cars or planes. I want to have a good record of what MX work I have done and be able to see and track trends in MX condition. With my 170, if I start doing this...I will have to have one set of logs for the FAA to see, and one set of logs at home that are much more detailed and tell the real story of the aircrafts MX condition. Bottom line is I just hate paying someone else to do something, be it home improvements, cutting my grass, working on my vehicles, or my C-170B that I could do myself. Of course with this mindset I have to keep in mind when I am going in over my head and seek help, which I do.
I do think Eric has the right idea. If someone can do his or her own good mechanical work, and does not get into a big incident where the logs are really checked over good, then they could get by for years and years without anything other than the "paper" annual from a cooperative A&P to keep everything legal. Logs are the problem with me. I like to keep super detailed logs on all my machines, be them cars or planes. I want to have a good record of what MX work I have done and be able to see and track trends in MX condition. With my 170, if I start doing this...I will have to have one set of logs for the FAA to see, and one set of logs at home that are much more detailed and tell the real story of the aircrafts MX condition. Bottom line is I just hate paying someone else to do something, be it home improvements, cutting my grass, working on my vehicles, or my C-170B that I could do myself. Of course with this mindset I have to keep in mind when I am going in over my head and seek help, which I do.
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
John, from your past posts I detect you earn your living with your pilots license.
Keep in mind, that the stategy you suggest here would subject a person to loss of that license privilege as well as possible criminal charges. (Not intending to imply any strong tactics, ...only hoping to cause a little reconsideration into the thought processes.)
Keep in mind, that the stategy you suggest here would subject a person to loss of that license privilege as well as possible criminal charges. (Not intending to imply any strong tactics, ...only hoping to cause a little reconsideration into the thought processes.)