Consider a 170 /need your opinion

[maxmax]

Hi all,

I am new here and immediately start bothering you with my questions.

I consider buying a 170. But I am somewhat unsure for what model with which engine to look.
Is there a big difference between the C145 and the O300 in respect of parts availability, overhaul
costs etc?
What do you think about a C145 with 1400 SMOH and appr. 500h after top overhaul? Are there
any special items to consider?

Is there a prebuy checklist? Are there typical areas on the 170 which you would recommend to
check (may be already at the phone)?

I did some research about the model history but could not find much information if there is a big
difference in the flying characteristics between the 170, 170A and B.

The questions do not go much in detail, I know. But I try to find a way to get closer to the items
a vintage airplane has.

Thanks for your help.
Max

[markeg1964]

Max,

I will let some of the more experienced members answer most of your questions but as a 170A owner I can say I love my plane and would not trade it for a 170 or a 170B. However, if I needed to replace it I would imagine I would be just as happy with a 170 or a 170B. (Although, I much prefer the look of the 170A & B’s tale.) What I’m saying is I think the differences are small enough that a good 170 is a good 170 regardless of the model. If I had three equal planes to choose from, one of each model, I would probably choose the B just because of the improvements made over the years – better heater, flaps, dihedral, and more space in the panel. However, I would not consider any of the improvements important enough to select a nice A over an average B of the same price. (I live in Oregon and have never wished I had a better heater, larger flaps, more dihedral or more space in my panel.)
Good luck on your search. I should also add, I doubt you could find a better group of owners than the 170 group.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Max,

Mark did a pretty good job and I agree with everything he said to a T.

To be just a bit more specific with a few of your questions. Technically there are minor differences with the 0-300 and the C-145. Later models of 0-300 have a few more differences in the crank and accessory case. This is a simplified answer. The important thing is if given a C-145 and a 0-300, both in the exact same condition, they would cost the same to overhaul.

There are minor differences in the way each model flies as you might expect since we are talking about a plane with essentially the same fuselage but with 2 different elevator setups and 3 different wing setups. For example the 170 and the 170A have small flaps. Slipping these models to lose altitude to land is common. With the 170B you DO NOT want to slip the aircraft with the flaps deployed and you shouldn't have to. All the models can be landed in a much shorter distance than it takes to depart. How short depends more on the pilot than the aircraft. I don't believe there is an advantage to either model on departure. And someone would probably have to point out to you the minor differences between them in cruise as they would probably be undetectable to all but one who regularly flew all three models.

[1SeventyZ]

From Cessna 170 Model Distinction

Original 170 (1948)
Notable features

* Fabric wings
* Dual V-type wing struts
* No dorsal fin

170 A (1949-1951)
Notable Features

* All metal construction
* Dorsal fin, tail identical to Cessna 195
* No wing dihedral
* 1950-1951 models feature improved cowl flap

170 B (1952-1956)
Notable features

* Larger Fowler-style flaps
* Balanced elevator for "lighter" pitch control feel
* Improved cabin heater design in 1953-1956 models
* Stiffer pre-stressed gear legs late 1953-1956
* 2.5 degree wing dihedral
* Pressure cowl design for more efficient engine cooling and simplified baffling
* Improved tailwheel steering mechanism 1955-1956
* D-shaped rear window 1955-1956

Serial number distribution
Model Years Serial Numbers
170 1948 18000-18729
170A 1949 18730-19199
170A 1950-1951 19200-20266
170B 1952 20267-20999
170B 1953 25000-26038
170B 1954 26039-26504
170B 1955 26505-26995
170B 1956 26996-27169

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

1SeventyZ has a good list. There is one error in that the tail of the 170A is not identical to the C-190/195 but looks like it is. I've added some comments to his list in color.

Original 170 (1948)
Notable features

* Fabric wings
* Dual V-type wing struts
* No dorsal fin <-Can have the dorsal fin added per the TSDS

170 A (1949-1951)
Notable Features

* All metal construction
* Dorsal fin, tail identical to Cessna 195 <-Looks the same but isn't.
* No wing dihedral <-Causes more of a change in look than flight charachteristic over the B models 2.5 degrees
* 1950-1951 models feature improved cowl flap <-Really? Never new there was a problem with the earlier one. What you might be seeing is a larger Seaplane flap

170 B (1952-1956)
Notable features

* Larger Fowler-style flaps
* Balanced elevator for "lighter" pitch control feel <-No real difference once in the air over the non balanced
* Improved cabin heater design in 1953-1956 models <-I think worth considering. I consider my '52 not to have heat then anything it puts out is a bonus
* Stiffer pre-stressed gear legs late 1953-1956 <-Comes down to what you are use to. I have no desire to upgrade.
* 2.5 degree wing dihedral<-Looks different but little to no difference in flying charachteristic over the early design no dihedral
* Pressure cowl design for more efficient engine cooling and simplified baffling <-I think the early cowl design has looks better and has some advantages over the later version
* Improved tailwheel steering mechanism 1955-1956 <-Could be argued the added complexity doesn't justify the any improvement
* D-shaped rear window 1955-1956 <-So little difference most people don't notice till it is pointed out
* Shoulder harnesses were an option <-Shoulder harness can easily be added to the B model without modification. They can be added to the earlier models but usually modification and approval is in order.

[GAHorn]

... * D-shaped rear window 1955-1956 <-So little difference most people don't notice till it is pointed out....

Uhmmm... a minor error... but no. It's the earlier airplanes that have the "D" shaped rear window (which I find so beautifully mirrors the tail.)

I'll add some things to consider:
You will not likely find three examples of these airplanes in equal condition to make these differences valid decision-makers. The best thing you can do is buy WHICHEVER model you find in the BEST condition you can afford....and let most of the differences fall where they may.

B-models have the best supportability from parts-availability standpoint due to their more commonly-shared C-172 and L-19* similarities. This is not to suggest one should avoid earlier models...it is only to advise a potential purchaser in an awareness-matter should a damaged or "project" be under consideration. Be especially alert to undocumented modifications. That applies not only to STCs that are not documented with Form 337's, but those that are missing their installation instructions, also.

*-added in an edit. The B-model enjoys many tail parts which it shares with the L-19, making some of those parts more readily available.

[maxmax]

Thanks for your answers. I really appreciate your fast replys.
Some questions again.
How is the parts availability in general for the engine? A friend of mine owned a Stinson
several years ago and was complaining all the time when he needed something for
his Franklin. Is the situation the same with the C145/O300 or can you easy find a
crankshaft, cylinders etc?

As far as i understood the dorsal fin is more for the optics, but has no relevance to
the flight characteristics?

How good is the heater in the 170? Could you fly the 170 when it is 50º without wearing
a heated thermosuit?;-) Is there a STC to install the better 170B heater?

Is there a prebuy checklist? Are the areas at the aircraft that recommend to look for,
because they are known to have problems?

Thanks again
Max

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

There is no comparison of the parts availability between the Franklin and the C-145/0300. The Franklin has been out of production for so long with no one supporting them that parts are few and far in between.

There are a few parts that are getting pricey for the C-145/0300A like the crank but at least there are options with the crank. Most other parts are pretty common and readily available somewhere like Continental or Superior. But of course with the break up and sale of Superior who knows where this will go. Other things that can cost money are the oil sump if it corrodes through and worn accessory cases. No one is making the sumps and accessory cases so you have to find a good one or set and the price of these is climbing as people know they are disappearing.

50 degrees is warm. Who needs a heater? You'll be fine with any of the models if 50 degrees is all the colder its going to get where you are. There is no STC but earlier models have been updated with later versions of the heat system. BTW it isn't the method of heat but more the distribution of the hot air that has been improved. For example there are no defrost vents prior to '53 and I'm not sure they didn't start as late as '54.

Can't recall a specific check list. The 170 is more or less the same as a 172 so check the same things you would on a 172. Corrosion and bad repairs are the biggest culprits. Check for corrosion around the front carry through spar but check for corrosion everywhere and if you are looking at a 170 or 170A look careful at the inside elevator ribs where the control tube attaches. These are exposed and I've seen them rust.

And I'll be the first to tell you regardless of what aircraft you buy, 170 or otherwise, don't get a prebuy inspection get a full annual inspection.

[GAHorn]

Thanks for your answers. I really appreciate your fast replys.
Some questions again.
How is the parts availability in general for the engine? A friend of mine owned a Stinson
several years ago and was complaining all the time when he needed something for
his Franklin. Is the situation the same with the C145/O300 or can you easy find a
crankshaft, cylinders etc?

As far as i understood the dorsal fin is more for the optics, but has no relevance to
the flight characteristics?

How good is the heater in the 170? Could you fly the 170 when it is 50º without wearing
a heated thermosuit?;-) Is there a STC to install the better 170B heater?

Is there a prebuy checklist? Are the areas at the aircraft that recommend to look for,
because they are known to have problems?

Thanks again
Max

The C-145/O-300 engines are widely supported and most parts easily found, even if you don't like the price. Early crankshafts are becoming scarce but are still available. They may be replaced with later crankshafts in an extreme situation, if you don't mind the expense of also buying a different prop.

The dorsal fin was created as a refinement of stall-recovery characteristics of the all metal wing. (The ragwing is a real sugar-baby when stalled...the all metal wings are a bit more abrupt in comparison. But a modern pilot will not likely notice the difference since most pilots learned to fly with metal wings and a gazillion of them learned stalls in similar Cessna 150/172 types anyway.) Adding the dorsal to the ragwing can be thought of as purely cosmetic if you will.

The heater is a personal-impression/preference thing. How do I know if you have cold feet? Do you fly in Birkenstock/Flip-Flops? (Most women prefer more cabin heat, but there's nothing wrong with telling them to dispense with sandals and shorts/skirts and wear pants and socks. If you are like bluEldr and like to fly with your women nekkid...you'd better get a later B-model.)

When you asked about a "pre buy checklist"...did you first try a SEARCH?
Take a look at this discussion:
http://www.cessna170.org/forums/viewtop ... ist#p35002

[1SeventyZ]

Bruce, how dare you argue with Cessna!

Sure, there is much subtext about true value of these minor differences between models but regardless, those are the distinctions as the factory rolled them out the door, for better or for worse. It's good though to suffix them with explanations.

The "D" window thing was a brainfart. I own a "D" window!

[Roesbery]

Maxmax Don't see where you are located? Could make a difference as to suggestions of 170's for your situation. Are you located in high country or low country?

[maxmax]

I am living in Germany and fly mostly over flat country, sometimes in the mountains.

After the Birkenstock joke i recognized that I made a mistake with the Celsius - Fahrenheit conversion.
LOL
I did mean 10º Fahrenheit or below. The winters here are cold sometimes.

Max

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I am living in Germany and fly mostly over flat country, sometimes in the mountains.

After the Birkenstock joke i recognized that I made a mistake with the Celsius - Fahrenheit conversion.
LOL
I did mean 10º Fahrenheit or below. The winters here are cold sometimes.

Max

So 50º (F) was wishful thinking on your part. Well or advice still stands and you know about the different levels of effectiveness of the heater systems. You must know there are plenty of people throughout the states who regularly fly their 170, any model, in the same temperatures that you will see. They are as I'm sure are you, acclimated to the temperatures and think nothing of it.

I'd think in Germany there would not be to many 170s to choose from and that any model you find for sale could not be ruled out simply because of model alone.

Good luck with your search.

[futr_alaskaflyer]

The b-model has what is in my opinion an improved heating system. Any time you are flying in conditions colder than 0 C you will find that the integrity of the door and window seals is as of equal importance to the heater.

I fly in temps down to minus 30 (about the same in either degree system .) Any small piston powered plane from the classic era is going to have cabin temperature issues there! My heater functions well enough to make it "seem" warmer than the outside ambient temperature. When you just preflighted at minus thirty and the heater brings it up to 20 F in the cabin it seems like a day at the beach Preheating the interior overnight makes all the difference in the world too.