KLN-88 Database Cartridge

N170BP · Post by **N170BP** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:07 am

JDH wrote:Bela and others looking to mount their hand helds.
Look at pages 434 & 435 in the latest Spruce catalogue. I got a Ram-O-Mount after seeing them at Oshkosh 5 years ago, when they first came out. They've come up with alot more models since. I mounted the base on the "shelf" the other end mounts to the GPS Map 195's craddle. The beauty of this device is that you can adjust in any axis with one hand, just by turning one big "wing-nut". The 195 is big, high and heavy and I find that despite this, where I have it mounted, being that we sit so high in our 170's, doesn't really obstruct the view. I am thinkinng of going to a 295, but will wait till after Oshkosh this year, cause I too think they may come out with a colour 196 (they already have them for marine and street use), and I will use the Ram-O-Mount to mount it then too. I flew a 185 with a 295 on the yoke and could feel its weight. JD

On JD's advice, I ordered a RAM mount from Aircraft Spruce for my
Garmin 196, and it just showed up today. Neat little contraption! I got the screw-in-base mount version (P/N 11-01766).

The base mount is a circular affair (2.5 inches in diameter),
and I'm going to try to mount it on the side sill trim plate/piece (bottom
of the windshield/side). I might have to trim a bit off of the circular
base mount to make it work, but that's an easy fix.

This mount appears to be a well engineered/fabricated piece of
hardware, and the price was relatively cheap too! ($27 and change).

Thanks for the tip JD

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP

wa4jr · Post by **wa4jr** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 6:06 pm

Yes, I did see that Garmin was offering a $500 trade-in credit on ANY old Apollo LORAN...even my old 604. But doing the math and looking at the features, the KLN-88 still won out by a large margin and a basket load of dollars. I sold my Apollo 604 for $20

I'm still with George when it comes to Apollo/UPS/Garmin stuff. Any company that stops supporting large numbers of their customers using a particular type of equipment is not someone to deal with in my book. Some are saying that the hand-held GPS units have many more features that the KLN-88. Perhaps they do have a few more features, but I just can't see anything that my KLN-88 does not have that I need. As is, I am going to have to expand my use of "quickcards" to keep me on track with the 88's many features. When the KLN-88s are gone...I'll go with a KLX-135 GPS COM in the panel.

But I shouldn't say anything...with all the folks going to GPS, even the high-end LORAN units are really coming down in price while the GPS units (panel mount) seem to be stuck in the stratosphere with the price!

My Apollo 604 went to a flying club up in the Northwest somewhere...it is all they use in their planes and they are getting them for a penny or two on the dollar.

Good point on the current database...I know it is important and will probably bite the bullet in a few weeks if I don't get a "we are glad to have you as a customer" from Honeywell soon.

Those folks using yoke mounted GPS receivers...where do you put your approach plates?

N170BP · Post by **N170BP** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 9:38 pm

Approach plates?

I'm instrument rated but haven't flown IFR in years....

I approach the airport, land and have a plate full of food!

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP

Post by **GAHorn** » Sat Mar 15, 2003 6:08 pm

It'd be nice if database updates were free. (We never had this problem with VOR's when they changed locations/frequencies.) But they're not.
The charge for a multi-thousand dollar GPS database and a $150 KLN-88 database being the same $220 doesn't bother me. I only do it once a year, and have virtually all the same capabilities. Only I save the multi-thousands of dollars.

If you don't want to spend the money for the updates, and don't want/can't remember the old airport identifiers....it's still no problem. Just highlight the city-name on the airport page, and enter the city-name or airport name. The old expired database will provide you with the old/expired identifier. Enter that identifier, or just push Direct,....and off you go.
If you don't know all those simple features, then contact Honeywell and ask for an operators manual. Unlike other mfr's, Honeywell (Bendix/King) still gives them away free. Even the abbreviated cockpit ones, too. (Don't be one of those idiots on Ebay that bid $10/$20/$40 and up for Bendix/King manuals. Just call the 800 number and get one for free. That's what the seller at Ebay did. They got a free manual and listed it for sale on Ebay and cleaned out the wallets of the unsuspecting.) 800/757-8999
I'm very happy with Honeywell support and the KLN-88.

wa4jr · Post by **wa4jr** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:14 pm

I've been thrilled with my KLN-88 as well...until I was departing IFR from Houston to San Antonio. The KLN-88 took forever to initialize, and then on the takeoff roll it flagged out. Just GREAT as it was programmed with the Industry 1 departure out of Hooks Field. Had to revert to ATC headings and VOR navigation. The unit came back two or three times during the flight to Stinson Municipal but was not reliable for any length of time. I thought it may have been precipitation static on the airframe as I was in cloud and rain...no static wicks and controls surfaces not bonded to the airframe with braided straps. While on the ground at Stinson yesterday taking my nasty oil leaking generator off for repair, I fired up the KLN-88 to see if it would initialize on a sunny dry day. No go! Received a message that there was a position error in excess of 1.7nm. Could the LORAN chains be down for servicing here in the south Texas area or is LORAN coverage just not too good down here normally?

This event has me considering speeding up my long range plan of installing a King KLX-135 GPS/COM....I can't have the LORAN flipping out when I need it most! Thoughts or ideas! When I get the resealed gen back from Navaho Accesories I will be back out at the plane and intend to reseat/clean the antenna connections to see if that has any effect.

Post by **GAHorn** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:39 pm

The KLN88 (and other Lorans) require their antennas be properly bonded to the airframe. If you have a genuine KLN88 antenna, and if you examine the countersunk mounting screw holes, you'll notice they are not white, but are black. This is a graphite/carbon bonding agent that must be clean, and the mounting screw and airframe contact area must make a good electrical bond in order to avoid backgound "noise" which will reduce your reception. Next time you have problems, look at the STAT screen and see what SNR (signal-to-noise) ratios the receiver is getting. This will give you a clue as to the problem.
If your antenna is mounted just aft of the windscreen, or some other static-generator then you'll experience increased background noise. (The KLN88 installation manual is very specific about all this for IFR installations.)

Dave Clark · Post by **Dave Clark** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:24 pm

George
Would the windshield static effect a GPS antenna also?

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:16 pm

Loran operates in the 100 Hz range, which is where P-static also is frequently generated. GPS utilizes a much higher freq. and is hardly affected by windshield P-static. (But can have a nasty harmonic interference from nearby FM broadcast stations and certain industrial-controls equipment.)

wa4jr · Post by **wa4jr** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 4:14 pm

Thanks again George. My antenna is a "leftover" from an earlier Apollo 604 system and is located on the top of the aircraft aft of the baggage compartment bulkhead. I'll check the electrical quality of the bonding when I get back to Virginia. I flew a bit yesterday to make sure the oil leaks have been repaired and that the new ACK-30 encoder was working and noticed that the KLN-88 said signals were not sufficient for IFR navigation...but the unit continued to work fine for my VFR flight...no flags or loss of position data as I had experienced coming over from Houston.

Post by **GAHorn** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:26 pm

John, if the Raymondville, Tx station is down for maintenance (called on the "blink", no kidding) then you are on an extended baseline for the Loran chain down near San Antonio. It's a weak area for Loran from there on down to McAllen, Tx in those conditions. Instead of 100 meter accuracy, the unit is providing only 1 nm accuracy in those cases, so the warning msg pops up. Selecting STAT and viewing the SNR, and then returning to the NAV screen will restore the navigational capability in those cases. (The KLN88 wants you to positively acknowlege the accuracy change before it'll let you continue to navigate with it. It does that by requireing you to view the recieved Signal Strengths.)

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 6:30 am

A friend of mine took a trip from washington back to Ontario Canada a few years ago,he said he had several occasions when the Loran wouldn't work due to a crappy signal. I've heard the same thing from other people,now here. I think I'd rather have GPS. Personally,I'd trashcan the "bargain" Loran panel-mount units,& buy a handheld garmin OPilot 3 or 196. What good is navigation equipment ( even if--or especially if--it's IFR-approved) if you can't depend on it?

Eric

Dave Clark · Post by **Dave Clark** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:44 am

Eric
I have not used a Loran for about eight years but back then I found it to have a lot of problems in Eastern WA and Idaho or down low over the Cascades. (Apollo 618). I'd see the groundspeed start to roll up and down by 5 or 10mph and know that the position was in error too. One time on a trip to Montana I had the 618 and the handheld Garmin 55 at about a ten mile difference in position appoaching an airport in Idaho. But then I got a lot of good use out of the 618 in general and it's really nice to have a panel mounted unit so there is certainly a good arguement for putting in these cheap Lorans.

I get to fly today after being down for a couple of weeks repairing and painting the cowling. It came out real purrrty after significant time was spent on bodywork. Next install the headliner and Rosens then I'm almost done. There is a good sized 180-185 club fly-in here in Payson this weekend and I got some nice compliments as I was working on the plane yesterday.

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 5:30 am

Eric, I don't know which model/make loran your friend used, but the KLN 88 is a "multi-chain" unit, unlike the others in the marketplace. It rarely experiences any more problems than the most modern GPS. The other lorans (Apollos, Foster, even Northstars) is analagous to those GPS units using the req'd minimum of 3 sats, vs the 8 or 12 channel models that were later introduced. It's an apples/oranges argument, but there's simply no way any GPS, handheld or panel mount, can compete dollar for dollar with a properly installed, updated KLN 88, if all you need is a quality area-navigation unit for the minimum expenditure. In most cases, a self-reliant, average capability guy can install one himself for less than $300, and have virtually all the features of GPS's costing $thousands more. It's especially attractive as a secondary navigation unit to someone on a tight budget. (Remember that none of the GPS or Loran units are certified for stand-alone, sole navigational use IFR. The expensive Garmin 530/430 units are combination GPS/VOR recievers.)

wa4jr · Post by **wa4jr** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:31 pm

Don't let the cat out of the bag, George! You know the only reason the top of the line KLN-88 is priced so reasonably is that everyone is jumping on the GPS bandwagon! On my return flight north to VA, the KLN-88 performed flawlessly. The unit even initialized within the 2 minute time frame on the ground at Stinson on Saturday, so one of the stations may very well have been down for MX. Thanks for the tip on the STAT page...I'll make a note of it on my flashcards

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:39 pm

On last year's journey from Texas through NM, AZ, NV to Las Vagas (with an overnight in Ruidoso, NM) it was my KLN-88 Loran (my airplane's only navigation radio) that navigated perfectly all the way, including getting us narrowly navigated up through/around the White Sands Missile Range, while my wingman's VORs couldn't get a signal in the mountains, and his Garmin 295 kept losing itself. It was he who ended up navigating off MY wingtip to stay out of the restricted areas. On the return trip, it again was the KLN-88 that navigated us both through the Show Low, AZ fires and smoke that had visibility reduced to a mile out in the northern NM desert and mountains.
(Next time you plan a trip, go to the DUAT website and look up the FDC NOTAMS for the GPS unreliable signal outages. You might be surprised.)