Every year this a/c must conform to the TC or amendments thereto. The guy signing his name to your annual may be savvy enough to spot the discrepancy and call you on it. I doubt that I'd be able to catch this discrepancy but if I did you'd be getting a sign-off of your annual as NOT returned to service for the following reason and the Feds would get a copy of that. It's my carreer on the line.
Whoever signs off the annual inspection is sticking his neck out when he buys this.
That having been said. His signature stating that the a/c is airworthy and is OK for return to service is good for as long as the ink takes to dry or out his hanger door. Whichever comes first. There is no way for him to know that you have installed the proper wings for the annual and replaced them with the 175 wings shortly thereafter. And he is not responsible should that happen. The operator is.
jon
Trouble with C-175 wing 337
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Well, before I would do this, I would make one more attempts to do the honest thing by trying another FSDO or two. But I would not waste much time with it. I understand the pitfalls here if someone were to determine that the stock 170B wings were in fact 175 wings, and were not willing to let common sense carry the day. Now I don't know how the serial/ID numbers are affixed to the wings, but if they are changed to reflect the fact that these are indeed 170 wings, then the problem goes away. The IA checks the numbers, sees that they are 170 wings and away you go. The larger tanks should never be detected. My IA is really going over my machine with a fine-tooth comb as it is my first annual and the first time he has seen the aircraft...and he is also an FAA safety counselor. I have not seen him root around for the identifying numbers on my wings yet...and I can't see any mechanic taking the days it would require to check every part number on the aircraft to make sure it is indeed a legal part for the 170. So the choices are to change the numbers and install the wings, or spend the summer flying season arguing with the FAA, or spend the summer flying season looking for another set of 170 wings, or just leave the 175 wings in the hangar and enjoy taxing the 170 fuselage around the airport....after the installation of a fuselage fuel tank! I know which one I would do because I love to fly!
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
There no S/N on the wings. I know alot of IA's including my self and some FAA inspectors that would be able to tell just by looking that they were 175 wings, which doesn't mean that if I was doing the annual that I would catch it.wa4jr wrote:Well, before I would do this, I would make one more attempts to do the honest thing by trying another FSDO or two. But I would not waste much time with it. I understand the pitfalls here if someone were to determine that the stock 170B wings were in fact 175 wings, and were not willing to let common sense carry the day. Now I don't know how the serial/ID numbers are affixed to the wings, but if they are changed to reflect the fact that these are indeed 170 wings, then the problem goes away. The IA checks the numbers, sees that they are 170 wings and away you go. The larger tanks should never be detected. My IA is really going over my machine with a fine-tooth comb as it is my first annual and the first time he has seen the aircraft...and he is also an FAA safety counselor. I have not seen him root around for the identifying numbers on my wings yet...and I can't see any mechanic taking the days it would require to check every part number on the aircraft to make sure it is indeed a legal part for the 170. So the choices are to change the numbers and install the wings, or spend the summer flying season arguing with the FAA, or spend the summer flying season looking for another set of 170 wings, or just leave the 175 wings in the hangar and enjoy taxing the 170 fuselage around the airport....after the installation of a fuselage fuel tank! I know which one I would do because I love to fly!
But, it would sure get old looking over your shoulder, wondering when the wrong person was going to notice.
Work on getting it approved the right way you will be happier in the end.
Tim
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Yep it took em 45 years to find the wrong wings on my plane so it can happen. They then did the paperwork and approval and still identified the wings wrong. They still have missed the 5 or 6 other mods stairing them in the face that have no approval. I've done none of these mods and my current IA knows of all the probelms only because I've told him about them.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Don't misunderstand me please, but ...wa4jr wrote: ... Now I don't know how the serial/ID numbers are affixed to the wings, but if they are changed to reflect the fact that these are indeed 170 wings, then the problem goes away. The IA checks the numbers, sees that they are 170 wings and away you go. The larger tanks should never be detected. ...and I can't see any mechanic taking the days it would require to check every part number on the aircraft to make sure it is indeed a legal part for the 170. So the choices are to change the numbers and install the wings,... .. I know which one I would do because I love to fly!
1) deliberately changing datatags/identification/or mis-labelling parts is fraudulent...and there are many laws against that not only in aviation but also in general. Depending upon the type of accident, and the damage done or lives lost as a result of the fraud ...or claimed by the prosecutor during the subsequent trial... could be a significant burden upon the person ultimately accountable....the aircraft owner.
2) this sort of deception is an ever-present and on-going nightmare for the entire industry. I can't tell you the number of airplanes out here that are not in compliance with airworthiness rules and type certificates and whose logbooks are pure fiction as the result. A future buyer of an airplane so altered would have good reason to come after the person who so fraudulently altered an aircraft.
3) It's amazing how easily a deceptive mind (not suggesting any of our present company) can deceive even itself when contemplating illegal acts. Each and every IA performing each and every Annual inspection is required to determine that the fuel system is properly maintained and placarded as to required types, grades and amounts of fuel and capacity. Even if your IA is sometimes careless, lazy or trusting, ... it's not likely the deception will be long in being discovered. It will not be a matter of if,....but a matter of when the fraud is discovered. It will not be simple or cheap to correct the wrong wings on that airplane when you decide to sell it. It will be virtually impossible to calm down the furious prospective purchaser when he discovers the illegality of the airplane he's spent time and money to examine.
I can assure you, the statement that "the problem goes away" is not correct. The problem will just be beginning. And the incorrect wings, fraudulently identified, illegally logged/not logged, and rather permanently installed on the airplane, will be far more durable evidence than simple paperwork.
For the future of 170's everywhere, and for your own satisfaction and peace of mind,... please do it right.
Fraud
If records or "Yellow Tags" for a part are fraudulently made and there was intent to defraud for profit it is a HUGE offense. The guys that take parts out of the scrap bin like turbine wheels and landing gear trunnions that have not been rendered unuseable and put different serial numbers and fictitious times in service are the worst offenders. If such parts cause a fatal accident the person who represented them as good can be tried for murder. The Feds are going after those culprits with a vengeance.
The guy that inadvertently represents a part as serviceable that isn't but does so unintentionally is not going to be in much trouble or nearly as much trouble I should say. If one represents a wing as such and such but it isn't they will have a serious discussion with that person and there would probably be at least some sort of action whether legal or a Ticket pulled. However; it would be carrer limiting choice to stick your neck out there in this manner.
I have heard of several a/c that have cockpit systems installed during the year only to be removed prior to their annual inspection. Nobody is the wiser and nobodies bacon is in the pan but the operator's if the unlikely happens and a Fed catches the item.
The guy that inadvertently represents a part as serviceable that isn't but does so unintentionally is not going to be in much trouble or nearly as much trouble I should say. If one represents a wing as such and such but it isn't they will have a serious discussion with that person and there would probably be at least some sort of action whether legal or a Ticket pulled. However; it would be carrer limiting choice to stick your neck out there in this manner.
I have heard of several a/c that have cockpit systems installed during the year only to be removed prior to their annual inspection. Nobody is the wiser and nobodies bacon is in the pan but the operator's if the unlikely happens and a Fed catches the item.
Last edited by Jon Stark on Sat Mar 29, 2003 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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eichenberger
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 8:27 pm
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
Well put fellows. It's unfortunate that most of us that feel that way are probably only the ones with a lot of tickets in our pockets to loose. There is a catagory for those who want to be able to play with changes to an airplane more freely and it is called Experimental Homebuilt. Too bad you can't put the 170 in that catagory. I really think one large factor in the growth of the Homebuilt movement is the tightening of FAA attitudes and services. Revision 15 will most likely result in some shifting away from certified airplanes to Experimental Homebuilt and or dropping out of GA altogether.
I used to wish I'd been around in the pre war "Golden Age" of aviation or even in the 50's post war but I'm glad I was involved in the last 30 years because it was really interesting also. But just a lot sadder in some ways. My first 170 was a '51 A and it was only 23 years old when I bought it. Now my 170 is 51 years old and I've thought a lot about the condition and age of all the certified GA fleet and how time has taken its toll (as well as on us). So my only point here is that I look at what will be left of GA as we know it now for my grandchildren to enjoy 10 or 15 years from now when they are old enough to solo. Well sorry for my depressing ramblings.
I used to wish I'd been around in the pre war "Golden Age" of aviation or even in the 50's post war but I'm glad I was involved in the last 30 years because it was really interesting also. But just a lot sadder in some ways. My first 170 was a '51 A and it was only 23 years old when I bought it. Now my 170 is 51 years old and I've thought a lot about the condition and age of all the certified GA fleet and how time has taken its toll (as well as on us). So my only point here is that I look at what will be left of GA as we know it now for my grandchildren to enjoy 10 or 15 years from now when they are old enough to solo. Well sorry for my depressing ramblings.
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
problem at hand
We have departed from the original post which was a request for help in solving the 175 wing installation problem. What do we suggest?
1. Get all of the similar 337's you can find. Show them a good data package. Show them how you intend to conform.
2. Get that letter of no objection from Cessna.
3. Go FSDO shopping, especially up north
4. Gather the flight history of the previous installations and document the amount of time flown in this configuration. A large total will help your case.
5. ALWAYS try to make the Feds feel like they were the ones to come up with the solution. You might suggest it but it was their idea.
6. Look at the FARs especially 21.33 and .51 for conformity info and airworthiness stds. Play their game. You don't have to be an IA to work with them. Just be patient and listen but then tell them of your needs and intentions and that you need their help in coming up with a workable solution.
1. Get all of the similar 337's you can find. Show them a good data package. Show them how you intend to conform.
2. Get that letter of no objection from Cessna.
3. Go FSDO shopping, especially up north
4. Gather the flight history of the previous installations and document the amount of time flown in this configuration. A large total will help your case.
5. ALWAYS try to make the Feds feel like they were the ones to come up with the solution. You might suggest it but it was their idea.
6. Look at the FARs especially 21.33 and .51 for conformity info and airworthiness stds. Play their game. You don't have to be an IA to work with them. Just be patient and listen but then tell them of your needs and intentions and that you need their help in coming up with a workable solution.
I'm trying to remain on track and do the right thing. This all begain with the first annual done by my local IA. I had a prepay-annaul done by an IA that I was only able to talk to over the phone. the plane and I were seperated by 1500 miles. I read the logs line by line and yes the plane had damage history there aren't many of the age that don't. However. the repairs to the left wing weren't done right. The left wing now needs attention, rear spar? skins re-attached to the under surface on the wing at the root.
I had talked to the local FSDO in November about how change 15 was screwing up repairs, 337 requests of the type I wanted to do and was a sure that it would all be smoothed out in January. In December I drained the fuel and was just going to remove and repair that one wing when a pair of 172-175 wings became available at just alittle more than what is was going to cost to repair the one wing. I have been putting together as much inforamation as I can get a hold of for aother run at a 337 or DER for an a STC.
I had talked to the local FSDO in November about how change 15 was screwing up repairs, 337 requests of the type I wanted to do and was a sure that it would all be smoothed out in January. In December I drained the fuel and was just going to remove and repair that one wing when a pair of 172-175 wings became available at just alittle more than what is was going to cost to repair the one wing. I have been putting together as much inforamation as I can get a hold of for aother run at a 337 or DER for an a STC.