The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Well, this post has been a long time coming. I have been debating if I wanted to write it or not for some time. Since I am still having my share of troubles with this engine company, I decided to go ahead with this. I know many members of this association have chosen Western Skyways for their engine overhaul which is why I decided to do the same. Maybe it's just my bad luck, but my experience with them has left much to be desired.
Last year I developed a bad vibration in my engine (C-145). This vibration was a 1/2 order vibration of .97IPS. For those unfamiliar, this 1/2 order vibration can be exceptionally dangerous because while the pilot my not feel it much, this frequency can cause severe damage to the engine and airframe. I got several opinions from different mechanics and no one could correctly diagnose the problem. All they knew was that it was not safe to fly in their opinion. The only way I discovered the problem was thinking it was a good idea to have the propeller dynamically balanced (turns out it may have saved my behind!!). After reading so many positive comments about Western Skyways, I chose to send them the engine for troubleshooting and repairs. Now, to be fair, I initially called them wanting a rebuild. The gentleman I spoke with suggested an engine run and diagnostics before jumping to an overhaul. Sounded great to me, so off it went. By the way, at this time, I was told 4 to 6 weeks for completion if it needed to be overhauled.
About two weeks later, I called for an update and was told my engine was disassembled and ready for cleaning. WHAT???? You mean, you assumed after running the engine and couldn't fix it that it should be torn down? I at least wanted a phone call. "Well, sir, the engine was never run... my paperwork shows engine disassembly." Now, my problem is this just cost me their minimum price of $6100 for tear down, inspection, and reassembly. We have no way of knowing if the problem was in a cylinder. If they found a problem in the test cell, this may have been much cheaper. This all lead to several phone calls, and more than likely, some very foul language on my part. They decided to make me a deal, they would proceed with the cleaning and inspection and if the cause was found to be in the bottom end, we would assume it would've had to come apart anyway and we would continue. If they found nothing..... they would make me an unheard of deal on an overhaul. I didn't have much choice but to accept their offer.
After several calls in the next few weeks, and WS never meeting their time promises on progress, the engine was inspected. Talking with their inspector, he told me they found the problem/s. 1st, we had opposing piston weights beyond limits, 2nd, we had connecting rods out of balance, 3rd, we had one lifter that was following the cam but not rotating. Pistons and connecting rods are connected to the crank. This means that their corresponding vibrations would be in sink with the engine rotation at a 1:1 ratio. My prop balance guy was able to correct my 1:1 vibration down to .04IPS (within .10 is considered good). We agreed this could not be the problem. Next, he agreed that if a lifter body was not rotating, but WAS following the cam correctly, this would have no immediate effect on engine operation. So essentially, they did find some problems, but not the problem I sent it in for.
I ended up getting a friend/lawyer involved. In response, Western Skyways produced a multi-page report on what was found after the tear down and why my engine had such a bad vibration. This report included all the items I had discussed with their inspector which we already agreed were NOT the problem. I took this document to a few well respected engine builders and they agreed that the conclusion from their data was incorrect. At this point, WS offered me $2K off the price of the overhaul, hardly enough to compensate their screw up.
Reluctantly, after several days of consideration, I decided to have them proceed with the overhaul since there were some issued that needed to be addressed. I do still believe they can produce a quality engine despite not being able to keep paperwork in order. I was told to expect about 3-4 weeks. 3 weeks later, I called for another update and was told the engine was almost done with disassembly and would be going on to cleaning. Wasn’t this already done? Apparently, further disassembly, cleaning and inspection was required for an overhaul. Weeks lead to months and I still had no engine. Promise after promise was broken as far as a time schedule goes. Finally the engine was complete and ready for a test cell run. We agreed they would hook up their balance equipment during the run to ensure a balanced engine. After the run, the balance results showed a 1:1 vibration of 1.13IPS, 100 times worse than when they got the engine. They called with the results and wanted me to send my propeller since they thought their test club may be at fault. I did just that and the results showed the engine to be just fine. This brought on two more problems. What kind of engine shop runs brand new engines with a test club this far out of balance? Also, when I sent my propeller, they ran the engine 5 or 6 times to balance it. Any balance guy you talk to won’t even touch an engine until it is properly broken in. Starting and stopping a new engine is devastating.
Finally, after 14 weeks, they returned my engine, and of course, did not return my custom engine stand I welded together. To put the icing on the cake, when they shipped my propeller back, they used the same wood crate I sent it to them in but completely failed to protect the propeller inside in any proper manner. Upon receiving the propeller, one blade tip had punched completely through one side of the wood crate rendering it useless. Five hundred and something dollars later, I had it repaired and I am still waiting to this day for the reimbursement they promised me.
I’ve only got about 9 or 10 hours on the motor now but it seems to be running fine. I do believe Western Skyways can build a decent engine, but their customer service is a complete failure. They may have much more expensive engines being worked on but that doesn't make my little Connie any less important. No one appreciates being put on the back burner. I would highly recommend choosing a different company for your next overhaul.

Richard you got your bird out here yet? D

Not yet. I'm shooting for middle of next month.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Apparently you are not alone. Several threads in the past two or three years on the AOPA forums about bad experiences there. No one is perfect, BUT...?

Sounds like you need a better home mechanic. Why would you remove your whole engine, crate it, ship it out to an engine shop, just have them put it on a test stand and run it? Unless your motor was a prop strike, high time, making metal or any other issue i dont think i know any mechanics that would hesitate to remove the cylinders for the purpose of inspecting/ troubleshooting for your vibration ON the aircraft. Not a surprise that you shipped your engine to an engine overhauler and they overhauled it. Also not a surprise that you had poor service by them. Sucks you had to learn about their rep that way.

Well, the problem was, the engine SEEMED to run just fine. Recently had finished the annual and all comp. checks were 71 or higher. Saw nothing from any one cylinder that would indicate a problem. None of the spark plugs showed any indication of mixture or firing issues. So if this was the case, what do you check? I suppose we could have started pulling random cylinders for inspection or overhaul but it doesn't seem there was much to be discovered. A 1/2 order vibration is usually in the top end however, so maybe doing a top overhaul would have corrected it. The engine was mid-time and field built by the previous owner and an A&P in the early 90's. Maybe I just don't have enough contacts yet but it seemed a little hard to find anyone willing to really look into this for me while it was still on the plane.

Experienced prop-balancers are usually capable of identifying the source of vibrations, if the cause is mechanical. (Bad cam, crank, prop, ignition, etc..)

Also, a magneto with carbon-arc-tracking (dirty distributor cap) can give this symptom.

Although this sounds suspiciously like a "failure to communicate" experience, It doesn't sound as if Western has deliberately attempted to hurt you, and their product outcome is, as usual, .... a good, serviceable, overhauled engine. It also sounds as if they've at least attempted to offer some consideration for their error.

Besides the basic engine, what other accy's did they overhaul/repair? Did they also keep your crank and cam?, or were those items replaced with different?

When you sent them the engine, ... did you include a letter detailing the problem and directing them what type of work to perform? The person you talk with on the phone and the recieving-dock/incoming-work person are likely not the same person, so there's little reason to expect the left to know the details of the right hand.

It's been my experience that the majority of difficulties with servcie providers is the result of poor communication. It's really important to be patient and precise, during the description of any problems/work-orders. Hurried and/or verbal instructions lead to unexpected results, with high probability of "he said - she said" results.

I am also surprised that an engine was removed/shipped intact for test-cell runs/repair of vibration symptoms. I'm disappointed your mechanic allowed you to go to that level, at what appears to be so early in the diagnosis stage.

Western Skyways has a good reputation for quality and customer service and they do a lot of engines. I hope they haven't retreated from that. Keep us posted.

I certainly don't think Western Skyways was trying to take advantage of me in any way. I agree that this was most likely a miscommunication problem. However, I had many detailed conversations with them prior to sending my engine and always talked with the same person. When both parties have a clear understanding of what is to be done, that should be the end of it. There should be no reason for me to expect any work to be done besides what we agreed on. Can you imagine sending your car to the shop for an oil change and when you show up that afternoon, your transmission was in a hundred peices on the ground? Oh, and you are responsible for paying. When you talk to the mechanic he says, "well sorry, but my invoice says to pull apart the tranny" Miscommunication inside any shop is NOT the responsibility of the customer.

Western overhauled my engine to zero time, factory new specs. The crank was serviceable, cam/lifters are new, magnetos are new, starter overhauled, alternator not touched. I also chose the ECI cerminil cylinders: I'm excited to see how they perform and how long they last. If I could have only convinced the admiral (read: wife) to spend another $20K, I really would have liked to put in an IO-360 . Maybe next time around.

The prop balance guy who worked with me seems to be very well respected here on the west coast. He has been in the business for 30 something years and used to do most of his work on helicopters and with Boeing. I have no doubt in his skills or authority. Trouble is, his business is in balancing, not engine troubleshooting.

Like I said before, I think this shop can build a descent engine, but they sure didn't seem to help me out when they made the mistakes. The fact that their engineer was willing to write a report full of info that he and I agreed was false really rubs me the wrong way.

Richard

LBPilot82 wrote:.... The fact that their engineer was willing to write a report full of info that he and I agreed was false really rubs me the wrong way.

Richard

That would DEFINITELY tick me off.

Well I just got to taste the icing on the cake. Last week, I was getting some paperwork and logbooks together for my annual. I noticed while thumbing through the paperwork on my new engine that I had 5 cylinder S/N's almost identical and one that was nowhere close, not even the same amount of digits. I thought I would call ECI and just check to see what exactly I had. Not to worry, I was told, all serial numbers correspond to ECI Titan steel cylinders, 5 sold in 2005 and 1 sold in 2010. Well no problem except that I have written documentation to Western Skyways that they would install ECI cerminil cylinders. What a joke. Apparently I am a fool for not checking all parts and serial numbers to make sure they are the correct parts. Pay almost $1000 per cylinder for cerminil and get steel. I contacted them last Thursday to see what could be done and was told they would check into it and let me know.... haven't heard back, but that's no surprise. Maybe it's just my bad luck but I can't see how anyone can stay in business with work like this.

What would any of you ask from a situation like this? I could ask for new cylinders of the correct type but I am hesitant to pull perfectly good cylinders. I could ask for $ back of the difference in price but this won't offset the cost of a top overhaul down the road. ECI warranties the cerminil cylinders for the life of the engine so I was hoping maybe some valve work would be the only necessary cylinder work as the engine grows old.