Autofuel...how do you guys get it in the tanks?

[russfarris]

I'm ready to get the STC and start using autofuel, BUT, there has to be a better way of refueling than five gallon Jerry cans. I'm not ready to spend 600 dollars plus on a full-blown portable farm-type set-up, either. Let's hear about some of the clever (and safe) solutions you guys have come up with - (for example, the Petersen autogas STC guy suggested aluminum beer kegs, pressurized with shop air...need more details on that one!) Russ Farris

[GAHorn]

West Texas farmers use an old (well, not that old) propane tank and pressurize it with a CO2 bottle with a regulator and safety pop-off valve. Shop air would work, but it'd also introduce oxygen into the tank and simulate a pretty powerful "destructive device". If you could afford it, you might call your local gasoline/oil/propane distributor and lease/purchase a 500 gallon gravity feed tank like farmers do. (You might also avoid off-road gas taxes with less paperwork by purchasing in bulk that way.)

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

We first of all if you plan to do this for a long time bite the bullet and get a pump setup. I've used 5 gallon cans for about 10 years and every time I was hosting the cans I thought boy if I'd only bought it long ago when it was cheaper I'd have been able to use it all this time.

First for the can setup. Get a good ladder or platform. Get some carpet or protective material to place between the can and the wing. I used 5 gallon plastic cans. I replaced the nozzle with a about a 18 inch piece of bicycle tube, one end stretched over the threaded part of the can. You can seal the can by tieing a loose knot in the tube when in storage. The bike tube will deteriorate over time but mine have lasted between 2 and 5 years depending on the quality of rubber used in the tube.

Now climb your steady ladder, place the protective material on the wing taking note where the ribs are in the wing structure. Place the can on the wing over this structure. Gently lean the can over will placing the long tube/nozzle into the tank opening. I also had a small section of 4x4 wood block to rest the can on will the fuel flowed into the tank. It helps to try this first with an empty can to see how far away from the tank you need to be in order to lean the can to the tank.

My current setup is a pump that my friend gave me. He also had a plastic double walled 35 gallon tank that the pump fit right in. He had the 14 gauge wire for the hook up to my battery and he had some old aircraft control cable that was just perfect for the ground cable. He had scrounged all this over time, in fact he had 2 complete setups. He is a great friend.
I of course had to supply the pickup truck, although he helps me keep it running. You will probably want about 20 ft of hose or more to comfortably reach your plane from the truck so keep that in mind.

I'm not sure how the pressurized beer kegs would work but those beer kegs might make a good tank for a pump. Granger has a pump like mine part #1P894 for $277, the extra hose is #2P289 for $38 these are 01-02 prices. Another source for a tank might be a gas tank of a larger truck. The kind mounted on the side.

Of course what ever you do be very careful of static electricity. Properly ground everything even those gas cans.

[doug8082a]

A freind of mine used to own a C195 that he used mogas in. He had two large plastic barrels (35-40 gallons each maybe?) in the back of his pickup. After filling them up, he drove to the hanger, parked in front of the plane, place one end of his filler hose in the barrel and the other end in the plane's tank and used a hand crank (or was it hand pump, I can't remember) transfer pump rig to pump the fuel into the plane while standing next to the truck. It's the sort of rig you see at construction sites for filling construction equipment that can't get to the pumps. Worked fine, no cans, no balancing acts, etc.

[zero.one.victor]

I know people with
1) pickup-bed mounted tank and electric pump
2) 35 or 50 gallon drum and hand pump (rotary-handle)
Naturally,the pickup-mounted tank system is the best arrangement. But it should be,it'll cost ya about 5-600 bucks by the time it's all together and pumping gas. The hand-pump on a drum is cheaper,but a pain in the buttocks as you have to operate the pump from the bed of your pickup or wherever,so it's pretty easy to end up with gas everywhere.
I actually prefer the 5-gallon cans,except for one aspect. I have 3 that I use for cargas,they fit in my pickup snugly next to the toolbox,so they don't rattle around. But 3 cans at 5-1/2 gallons apiece is only about 2 hours worth,so I make a lot more trips to the gas station than the guy with the 99-gallon pickup-bed tank.
The standard nozzle on the gas cans work well with my ragwing,but I recently filled up a friend's A model with cans & it was a little tougher not to make a mess cuz the gas-cap openings are smaller diameter so it's harder to get the nozzle into the tank with my thumb over it. Also,the openings are located farther inboard than mine,so it's kinda awkward to fill up from where the ladder has to go.
And at about $6 each,the jerry-cans are the most cost-effective method by far.

Eric

[Dave Clark]

A 180 driver told me yesterday that there is a "seaplane" funnel that guys use that's made of carbon fiber and will conduct electricity for a ground system as ell as filter the fuel so it replaces the old chammois (sp?} funnel deal. I have a siphon tubing that has a check valve in it so that all you have to do is shake it to start the flow. after most is transferred that way I use the spout on the can to pour the balance.

[zero.one.victor]

My friend with the newly-acquired A model has a similar check-valved siphon-hose set-up. Somewhat slower than just pouring thru the gascan nozzle,and sometimes it's sorta stubborn about not wanting to get the flow started. I think they have the check-valve located too far upstream from the can--it's actually just about at the outlet end of the hose. It oughta be closer to the center,or else they just need to shorten the hose up.
My cousin used to fly an Aeronca Sedan in Alaska way back when (1950's) and told me he had a funnel that screwed right into the gas tank neck,like the cap, so it wasn't always wobbling around and falling out,etc. Had a chamois for filtering rust,water,etc out of the gas,which alot of times was out of a cached 55-gallon drum.

Eric

[N3243A]

I know you said you didn't want a farm type set-up, but if you fly a lot and have pickup truck, I would "bite the bullet" and install at least an 80 and better yet a 100 gallon tank mounted n the bed. I have been using a 100 gallon tank in the back of my truck for 4 years now and the convenience factor alone is worth it, let alone the price savings of whatever type of fuel you pump in. No taxiing (or flying) to some FBO and waiting in line! If you put a tank in your truck, you maybe able to find a bulk avgas dealer or wholesaler and pull up next to his tank and get a pretty good price cut over the local FBO. Here in Anchorage, we can save 45-70 cents a gallon on avgas by doing this. You can recoup the costs in a little more than year or so if you fly more than 100 hours yearly. My tank setup cost over $850 but I went "first cabin" on the pump, meter and ground system.

[planepilot1]

For quite a number of years I had a 100 gallon aluminum saddle tank from a truck tractor mounted in the back of my pickup. I used a pneumatic pump to do the pumping and a regular gas nozzel with auto cutoff. It worked great. I would catch auto fuel at the lowest prices and top off the tank whenever I needed it. Later on I began sharing this with a friend & hangar mate. We located a wrecking yard that happened to have a junk fuel tank body off a fuel truck and purchased a meter off it for a few $'s. This way we could keep up with how much fuel each of us used so we could share the costs. Laer when I sold my pickup we mounted this tank, pump and hose on frame orginally build to have had a small trailer bed mounted on it. This unit works very well although it requires pulling it to the gas station for fuel and also requires air from a compressor to operate (fortunately our hangars have it available). If the pneumatic pump ever peters out we will get one of the 12 volt pumps from Tractor Supply or Grainger. They would be simpler to use. Either of these is much, much easier than hauling fuel in 5 gallon cans, hoisting them up on the wing, having the likelyhood of damaging paint and is also easier to ground than cans. I keep up with my fuel purchases so at the end of each year I can apply for a rebate from the state for road taxes I pay at the gasoline stations.

[zero.one.victor]

Ditto on Frank's comment about tax refund. If you're willing to do a little record-keeping,the State of Washington will credit you the road tax you paid on the mogas for your airplane,deduct the aviation tax you owe,& send you a check for the difference--currently about 7.6 cents per gallon. I'm waiting for my refund check for the first three months of this year,I expect to get about $35. Enough to buy several airport diner hamburgers,and well worth the minimal effort it takes.
Contact the Department of Licensing,Fuel Tax Division at 360-664-1838

[GAHorn]

I was referring to this in my earlier post, but I'll mention it again...
If you call your local oil distributor (in rural areas this is likely the same guy who sells propane), you may be surprised to find he'll deliver mogas to your place far cheaper than buying it at the local service station. In addition, if you sign the document he provides you for off-road use, you will not be paying the road taxes up front, so you won't have to later apply for the refund. (At least that's how it is done in central Texas.)
(If you are a committed avgas burner things are usually a bit more complicated. Most avgas suppliers will not deliver less than 1200 gallons per delivery, so you'll need a sizeable tank.)
You can also avoid the gas taxes by applying to the State Comptroller in Austin, Tx for a "Fuel Dealer's Permit" and avoid paying taxes up front. The permit is a one-time fee of $25.

[JDH]

Russ, here I got a great deal. Shortly after I moved to this grass strip, a school moved out and no one wanted to get in or share in the fuel tank that was left. It turned out that the tank belongs to Campbell fuels, the same guys that sell me my heating oil and are located right down the road from my house. After inquiring, they were just too happy for me to take over this 500 galons tank with electric pump, aviation filter and pump. As it was mentioned here, and what some friends have done at a different airport is to contact a local bulk fuel sales outfit and tell them you would like to get one of their tanks with pump and hose for you to pump Mogas into your plane. Give them an average of how much fuel per year and see what they say. If not too excited, ask them if they'd lease it to you for a reasonable fee or finance it over several years (as they do if you bought a furnace from them). If you can get a few folks to get in on it with you, all you have to do is make a lock box with keys only going to the "partners" and the best system is: difference between start and end of refueling multiplied by cost per gallon (I leave a small calculator attached to the clip board along with a Zip lock bag glued to the back of it) and they leave a check for the amount used that fill up. This way, you don't chase people around for $ and it is a re-imbursement, not a sale or commercial operation. At the end of the year, you claim back the road tax. Good luck, JD

[blueldr]

Get a tank and a pump, with or without a meter, in the back of your pick up truck. Grainger has the pumps. Mine is a Gasboy with a meter. I like to know how much I'm putting on. It will pay for itself in a short time, and when I had the C-145 engine it ran smoother than avgas. If you don't have a pick up, you shouldn't be trying to fly anything!

BL

[zero.one.victor]

George & JD: what kind of volume are you talking about,to get a discount bulk rate buying from a gas distributor? My guess is that it's gonna be more than the average-size pickup tank,meaning you gotta have a ground-based tank or fuel truck. I doubt like he...ck that they're gonna discount 50 gallon sales. I fly a lot (175+ hours a year),burning mostly car gas,and this last quarter was ther most I cargas I ever use--460 gallons. Even that high mark only averages out to about 150 gallons a month,not very much in the eyes of a distributor.

Eric

[GAHorn]

A new above ground tank (500 gals on a 10 ft high trestle) with delivery hose and nozzle is $695 here locally. 87 oct mogas is $1.39 this week. (The road use taxes are not included in this price because the assumption is made that it's for "farm" or off-road use.) They will deliver upon demand, but request that orders be for 500 gallon fillups unless extenuating circumstances exist. (Each 500 gallons would cost about $700.)
My quick calculations indicate that the first 500 gals will cost you almost $1400 which is $2.80/gal. The second 500 gallons drop the price per gallon to $2.10 By the time you've used 5,000 gallons the price is finally down to $1.54 and the next 500 gallons only drop the price overall by 2 cents to $1.52/gal over the entire 5,500 gallons purchased. At your current usage, Eric, it would take four years before your fuel price would get down to $1.50 per gallon assuming you don't depreciate the fuel tank purchase.
Anyone contemplating this might also consider the use of a fuel-stabilizer product such as "Stabil" (c) to keep the fuel fresh.