Estimated Value on this 170??

[bimmer1980]

Hey guys,
I'm a newbie who just found this forum after doing some research on the Cessna 170. I recently found an auction for a 170 and I'm trying to figure out if I should go after it or not....

Here are the specs:
1948 Cessna 170, 4 passenger, Serial #18358, Reg. #N4039V. Tach time 229 hrs., TT approx. 490 hrs. MAA plate #182217. Continental Motor C-145, Motor Serial # 3695-8-2.

I'm suspecting that it would need some work... new fabric, perhaps? Engeine work? boroscope it or total rebuild? Obviously there will be a number of small items that need to be upgraded or replaced. As well as an annual inspection.

http://www.auctionzip.com/Full-Image/1110411/fp3.cgi

I plan to go look at the plane in person this week. I was also thinking about checking to see if there is an A&P here locally (York, PA) to take a look at it as well. What should a baisc pre-buy inspection cost?

Bottom Line--what ball park amount should this plane be worth? How much money does one need to allocate to get this to flyable condition?

For a newbie, should I go after this or pass on it?

Thanks!
Brad

p.s. I'm also a member of EAA and garagejournal.com. I'm not afraid of a project, but I don't want to get in over my head.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

WOW. Are you kidding. If you end up buying this airplane please promise to take thousands of pictures of it before you do anything to it.

Lets assume the total time is 449 hours. Lets assume it was flown 50 hours a year and then parked. That means it's been sitting since about 1957 or 54 years.
We will assume there is no corrosion of the airframe, or control cables.

Here are my thoughts.

Engine. There is no way this engine sitting that long should be started. Or even turn the prop for that matter.I would tear the engine down and we will assume the crank and gears and lifters and cam can be cleaned up. You will be into about $6,000 and $8000 just with cleaning, measuring and inspecting and getting new bearings and such. I would think the cylinders are probably rusted but they may be salvageable for another $1000. If you buy 6 new cylinders your into another $5000. So maybe $10 -$15K depending on what you find. You don't want to turn it or attempt to run it because it you ruin the crank your looking at another easy $3k and more.

The covering on the wings. It is cotton more than likely and no matter what there is just no way cotton could be good that old. They will need to be recovered. This isn't the hardest job to do and in fact can be fun but you need a place to do it. Cost if you do it probably under $1500 for material. I'd think 3 times that to pay someone to do it. Paying for the rest of the plane to be painted $5k or more till it is stripped and painted. BTW it's hard to tell is it all aluminum with green strips or has someone painted it white?

It most likely still has Goodyear brakes. You'll want to replace them and there goes another $2000

This plane is extremely simple electronics wise and you won't want to pay to put lots of radios in it but you most likely will want one radio. You are required to have a transponder. Figure $5k to buy and have them installed.

How dry rotted is the interior? Will it last more than a few times around the patch. You can look at Airtex to get an idea of pricing there.

We haven't even talked about overhauled instruments. Those won't work or you won't want to rely on them after this amount of time. Then there is control cables and the list goes on. I do detect some hanger rash to the right elevator as well.

If you got the plane for nothing you will probably be upside down in it before you would know it. If you want a project though and you want to keep it as it is, original, this looks like a great start from the pictures. If on the other hand your looking to do a quick patch job and a few inspections and fly I'm afraid this isn't it. You will have to do the engine work. You will want brakes. You will be required to have the transponder. There is no way the wing covering will be airworthy.

I hope Dan Wood chimes in here, he's been there done that and on his second '48.

When is the auction if you don't mind me asking. I live about 100 miles away and would love to just document the airplane with pictures if the timing is right.

[bimmer1980]

thanks for the quick reply!!

I just talked to the employee who is handling the estate of the gentleman that passed away (the airplane owner).

He told me that it was last flown in 1986 and that the motor was last run in 1992. He said the guy had medical issues and that was why he stopped flying. This guy said that the gentleman had somebody go out and rotate the prop about once per month. I'm not sure if this is good bad or otherwise....

He has the log books. he mentioned that this guy was the second owner. The first was the guy from Greene's icecream. It sounded like there was some engine issues after about 10 hours of initial running and the pistons and rings were replaced.

I'm thinking about going to look at it just for the sake of seeing it. Your points that you raised above was exactly what my gut was telling me as well.....

The auction is in New Oxford, PA on Friday 4/15. If you decide to fly over, you are probably aware of the Thomasville airport. I'm not sure if one is closer or not... If you decide to come over, perhaps we can meet up and go to it together--it would be a good learning experience!

Since I'm not an A&P, how much work could I actually do on a plane like this? primarly based on the legalities and log books...

I'm pretty mechanical minded--I've worked on a variety of cars, etc. Space is not a problem as I'm currently in the process of finishing a decent sized garage.... My long term plan is to build an RV-9 or perhaps a RV-7.

Thanks,
Brad

[Forrest Walton]

Bruce,

Did you notice that there is more than one picture? First time I looked I didn't see the advance buttons at the bottom of the picture. Couple of nice interior shots.

Forrest

[DaveF]

Bruce, you MUST go check out that airplane, and take pictures. Except for the VOR antenna, it appears to be a museum of factory-original details.

Brad, if you want to fly, buy a flying airplane. Restoring that airplane to airworthy condition with eat you alive. You'll have fun and be proud of the result, but it will cost more than you'll ever sell it for. Having been in your shoes, I know you don't believe me, but it's true.

[Fearless Tower]

The covering on the wings. It is cotton more than likely and no matter what there is just no way cotton could be good that old. They will need to be recovered. This isn't the hardest job to do and in fact can be fun but you need a place to do it. Cost if you do it probably under $1500 for material. I'd think 3 times that to pay someone to do it. Paying for the rest of the plane to be painted $5k or more till it is stripped and painted. BTW it's hard to tell is it all aluminum with green strips or has someone painted it white?

Looking at the photos, I doubt that is the original fabric - it has definitely been repainted white with the large N#s at some point in its life. Still may need a wing recover though.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Yes I did note all the photos of the plane and I might have caught a few more details than the casual observer. I've had a phone conversation with Brad and we were discussing this plane. Seems it flew as late and 1986 and the current owner who is deceased was the third owner.

As I discussed the plane with Brad I asked if it was painted all white but he didn't know as he has yet to see it. I explained that it was missing the Cessna log on the tail and that is when it hit me the N number was wrong as well on the side. What I noticed from the interior shots was the panel overlays seemed to be painted blue or blue gray. But if you look at the two original looking decals, one over the left radio and the other under the cigar lighter for the interior light rheostat, their back ground is dark which I think is the original brown panel paint. But if you look close above the printer it looks like the original Primer placard and that has no back ground clear decal as I've seen in other examples like this was silkscreened on the panel not a decal. Like this was the original overlay color and the The plexi center does have a blue gray back ground. This airplane also has no venturis and either Goodyear brakes or Cleveland's with the brake cylinders forward. I'm betting Goodyear. As for the interior upholstery I'm thinking not original because of the color which is blue. I'm thinking the outside paint isn't really green but a blue green.

I told Brad I might drive out there on Friday to the auction just to document the plane. Be worth the trip maybe just to see the interior panel and what is really going on there. But I remembered afterward I have to work all Friday night so I have to watch what I do in my "rest" period. A 3 hour round trip might not be the best thing. Can't fly 7A as the field we keep it as is a mud hole and we're having more rain between now and then. But who knows, we'll see.

[GAHorn]

Bruce, one of the rarer interior colors was "Silver French Gray" and I believe this is what we are seeing on that panel. The differeing color beneath the placards is likely due to age of the adhesive and the decal itself providing a delaying effect of oxidation-action.

The plane exterior has definitely been repainted...and I would be VERY SUSPICIOUS of the mentioned flight times. That tachometer looks like a replacement....I noticed the red-line is marked incorrectly. So the horometer is probably not actual.
I see it has the small Scott tailwheel. Add $2000 for the Scott 3200.

...We will assume there is no corrosion of the airframe, or control cables. ....

WHY would you assume that!

......It most likely still has Goodyear brakes. You'll want to replace them ....

Oh? Really...!!!

[DWood]

Bimmer:
I love it! It looks like a great original project as it will be a full project.
The panel is very original except I question the blue color on the panel (I suspect it was painted). If you look below the panel on the verticle cover and under the panel, you will see what looks like the silver french gray.
I would be very worried about corrosion as it appears to have been in an open hanger with maybe a gravel floor. I would want to take lots of time looking inside every surface for corrosion.
PLEASE take lots of detail photos of the entire interior, the front of the cowl, and engine compartment even if you don't buy it. It would be very interesting going thru the logbooks.
You can check mine out at http://www.fly170.com
Thx,
Dan

[DWood]

Cessna Blue Green was the original color in the green 48 170's. This might be it and it would be very interesting to carefully look at the panel and the labels to see if this has been repainted. The background on the labels might have been brown.
PLEASE take good photos.
Thx,
Dan

[russfarris]

A couple of things: Although it's hard to be absolute from the pictures, I get the impression that the wing has been metalized. On any fabric covered airplane there is a definite sag between the ribs, and I don't see any. If it was metalized in the 1950's, that would account for the N number being re-painted on the wing. The 12 inch numbers on the fuselage would have required by January 1, 1962, and there they are.

The General Electric AS-1B LF tranceiver would have been original equipment in 1948, but not mounted in the glove box. The Narco VHT-3 SuperHomer is vintage late 1950s, and when it was installed they probably moved the G.E. over to the current location. It's very rare to find one
still installed (my 1946 Stinson had it when I owned it in the early '90s) Overall, this airplane has tremendous potential to be a real show stopper.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

George may be right. What I'm seeing behind the decals may in fact be the clear now brown decal material. This is why I want to see this plane personally.

I only said that I assumed no corrosion because I didn't factor in the repair cost.

I did note the tach was marked wrong.

I pointed out to Brad while we were on the phone, that 449 hours in 38 years ('48 -'86) wasn't good either.

As for the Goodyear wheels and brakes If it weren't for the fact that my 7:00 x 6 tires are legal on Goodyear wheels and the Goodyear brakes are required for the crosswind gear, I'd dump the Goodyears quick. Of course as it is the Goodyear parts on my plane are just a few more original parts others don't have.

[tweiss]

Interesting right side rudder pedals. That's one way to keep you passanger from putting your taildragger on it's nose.

[GAHorn]

Interesting right side rudder pedals. That's one way to keep you passanger from putting your taildragger on it's nose.

Right-side brakes were optional in all years except 1956 when they were "extra cost".

[russfarris]

A few more things I noticed - Is that a suction gauge on the far right of the panel? There's no venturi installed. Also, the number is missing from the upper right wing. Russ Farris