The International Cessna 170 Association

Deleted..... sorry to disrupt the continuity of the thread

Kieth, one thing to check is to ascertain exactly which piston rings were installed with those steel cylinders. Hardened steel rings on steel cylinders, (as well as chrome rings on chrome cyls), have been known to cause this sort of failure.

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KG wrote:Hi George,

The pistons and rings came new with the cylinders from ECI. At this point, I am assuming they are the correct ones. Of course, I've made bad assumptions before.

K

Correct or incorrect, it sounds like ECI's problem. Keep us posted... pictures if you can.

Did you happen to question the three guys that asked about the use of auto fuel about what effect it was supposed to have on cylinders?

blueldr wrote:Did you happen to question the three guys that asked about the use of auto fuel about what effect it was supposed to have on cylinders?

No, but it was clear to me that in the absence of a legitimate solution they would have been perfectly willing to blame it on auto fuel, regardless of the actual cause.

Auto fuel is specifically condemned by most cylinder mfr's as voiding any warranty. I won't go into all the reasons I agree as it's been discussed elsewhere.

gahorn wrote:Auto fuel is specifically condemned by most cylinder mfr's as voiding any warranty. I won't go into all the reasons I agree as it's been discussed elsewhere.

I have the break in instructions from ECI and they specifically say to run nothing but 100ll for the first 50 hours. I'm sure if I had not done that it would have voided the warranty for not following their recommended procedure, even though I don't see how auto fuel could have possibly harmed the cylinder wall.

KG wrote:

gahorn wrote:Auto fuel is specifically condemned by most cylinder mfr's as voiding any warranty. I won't go into all the reasons I agree as it's been discussed elsewhere.

I have the break in instructions from ECI and they specifically say to run nothing but 100ll for the first 50 hours. I'm sure if I had not done that it would have voided the warranty for not following their recommended procedure, even though I don't see how auto fuel could have possibly harmed the cylinder wall.

It burns at a different temperature, and it has more lubrication-diluting solvents. (Although I agree it seems unlikely to harm cylinder walls as much as it produces unpredictable results for other components, so the cyl-mfr's don't want to try to deal with unknown effects of less-regulated fuels.)

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When evidence is "lost" or "gone" in corporate, legal, or political matters.... it usually ends up that someone liable for error wanted it "gone". If the engine shop didn't have the pistons...that's who I'd be blaming. They either didn't want you to have them...or ECI didn't want you to have them and prevailed upon the shop to return them for examination and "core".
If the pistons/rings were defective, ECI would be better-off that they examined them to correct defects in future production...or to destroy them to prevent them becoming evidence.

I had a wing nearly come off a C-414 due to wing-attach-fitting corrosion. We had an annual inspection done immediately as I became associated-with/responsible-for the aircraft, per my personal insistence. When I told the shop to keep them for me because the owner planned to introduce them in court (against the pencil-whipping previous inspector who'd signed off the previous four annuals )... the shop told us they'd shipped them to FAA, Hearndon, VA. An AD note came out against all C-414s over the event....and FAA kept them.

What we found when we opened the left wing root fairing, after only 3 months since last annual inspection. (The paint wasn't even gone from fairing screwheads from paint-job 5 years previous):

Here is a view of the portion of the spar-attach seen from the other side/beneath the spar, in the area above/inboard of the wheel well. The area is virtually impossible to observe during a preflght. Notice the intergranular corrosion above/inside the most inboard nut? That is one of a row of bolts which hold the spar to the attach-fitting.

This aircraft had been purchased by a new owner, taking the seller's word (a friend of the new owner) that they had been doing FAA Part 135 mx and annuals on the airplane for six years in a row. Since a fresh annual had just been performed...and since the airplane was on a 135 MX program, ...what could be wrong with it? After-all...it was being bought from a friend who'd remain as a regular user also, right?

The corrosion was discovered during an annual inspection, performed by a different shop, at my insistence after I'd discovered the left engine had an oil pressure problem due to the previous shop's use of a batch/lot of oil which had been condemned by AD note. (Remember the AeroShell Airworthiness Directive which came out when Shell had a plant pump disentegrate and put plastic particles in a particular lot of oil? Well...this airplane, on my first flight with the new owner,... suffered low oil pressure in which I did a precautionary shut-down while IFR descending into Love Field, Dallas. We found "pink" plastic particles in the oil filter. A call to the engine mfr didn't pick up on the problem, an oil change was done and all appeared fine. But I became suspicious of previous mx, so (despite an argument with the new owner who thought I was wasting his money) I put the airplane in for annual inspection.
Yet ANOTHER reason why only annual inspections are valid for pre-buy inspections, IMO.


Here's how the rest of that fitting looks...after the wing was removed and it was replaced Again.... Before: After: OH Yeah... the sorry mx previous shop and inspector? Capitol Wings, Alan Dunn, Austin TX

The shop which found the potentially deadly corrosion and did the good inspection and work? Air Impressions, Waco, TX.

good demo George. I found that same situation on one of our C340's after our shop hadn't been looking hard enough at the fittings (I was no longer in the shop by then) - problem being that the inboard fairing which is riveted to the fuselage can't be normally removed for inspections, but water does get in there and pools on top of the fitting causing corrosion. You have to bend the fairing up a bit and get in there with a mirror, plus know what you're looking for. I did, now they do too again.

back to our story - Keith, were your ECI cylinders Nickel? we recently had some of those come apart on a RAM TSIO-520 and cause metal in the oil at 7 hrs SMOH. Luckily for us RAM fixed it all on their dime, unluckily of course the airplane sat for 3 months while things were fixed and we had to replace it with another for the project, and RAM didn't pay the labor for removal and reinstallation. And now I'm fixing the work done by the shop that R and R-ed the engine, they ain't too sharp. I found oil line fittings loose, the vacuum lines reversed, and a couple other interesting items that I had to fix before I could even fly the airplane home after it came out of that shop. Anyone in ND can PM me and I'll let you know who that shop is, unfortunately I'm friends with them (small world up here ya know) but don't particularly trust their work as you can tell.

Aryana wrote:George, just curious...how did you catch that corrosion after only 3 months since the last annual? That's a scary one...

Aryana...that intergranular corrosion did not occur after only 3 months from last inspection. That's when it was DISCOVERED. That corrosion (intergranular) does not occur in only 3 months... it sometimes takes years to develop to that degree...and sometimes may occur in one-year to a smaller degreee...but THAT corrosion wasn't new...it was overlooked/undiscovered because Alan Dunn and Capitol Wings did not properly inspect that attach fitting despite the fact that the Cessna inspection program they claim to have used, and the Cessna forms they actually attached their certificate numbers and signatures to.... specifically stated they had removed that fairing and inspected that fitting.

I don't mind naming them because I'll never do business with them again under any circumstances, and I'm not scared to name them because I'm being truthful about them and they know it. There are plenty of other shops who actually do the inspections they're paid to perform, with NO