GROUNDED

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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dacker
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GROUNDED

Post by dacker »

I just had my first annual on 9584A and got the bad news :( ... corrosion on the main spar of the left wing. This should have been found on the pre-buy inspection but I guess the mechanic I used for that just wasn't looking very hard. Thankfully (and I really mean thankfully) the sharp eyed mechanic I have been using as of late found it. It appears to be intergranular corrosion along the top cap adjacent to the gas tank, rivets pulling through, shale like appearance, the whole nine yards. I also found what is probably an illegal spar splice near the wing root from many years past. I believe the corrosion is a result of the shoddy workmanship on the left wing since the right wing which has not been damaged is corrosion free. My mechanic doesn't even want me to try to rebuild it "as it is just a mess". Even though I am sad that my baby is grounded, I am very happy that my day wasn't totally ruined on one of my outings this past year. That is a testament to the ruggedness of these little Cessnas. The purpose of my message is threefold: 1) to look for commiseration, 2) to put feelers out for a rebuildable left wing, and 3) to warn others to look really hard at thse airplanes at inspection time (better yet, before you buy). As bad as the corrosion is, it is really hard to see. 8O
David Acker
9584A
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C170 Wing Repair

Post by N1277D »

Richard Smith of Smithcraft Enterprises in Eagle Idaho specializes in rebuilding Cessna wings and control surfaces. He is a C170 owner also and has all the jigs and parts to do it right. His work number is 208-939-0718 Cell 208-866-7258. I have not talked to him in a year, but I believe he still takes in rebuild projects and has wing parts and possible a complete assembly.
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Post by N1478D »

That is bad news, sorry to hear about that. Glad to hear that it was discovered on the ground and that you have one good wing.

There was a recent post on ebay of a guy cleaning out his hangar, believe he had 1 or 2 rebuildable B model wings, a door, and other parts. I didn't mark the location though because it was B parts.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
dacker
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Post by dacker »

Thanks for the info, keep sending more. I neglected to say that 84A is a '49 A model. I would think that a B model wing would be easier to replace since I believe you could also use wings from the early 172 pool. I am searching all of the salvage yards I can find for a suitable replacement. I found one (wing structure only) with hail damage for a paltry $3500, and a couple of others with damage that don't look too attractive just yet.
David
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Post by N1478D »

Texas Aero Colors in Brady, TX has a very good reputation. PM me and I'll give you Alan's info, instead of posting private info on the web.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
doug8082a
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Post by doug8082a »

I had an aileron rebuilt last year by Williams Airmotive in Kendallville, IN. Good work, fair price and quick turnaround - all plusses in my book. They have all the jigs to rebuild most anything plus a whole bunch of salvage parts - useable and rebuildable. Here's a link to their website - they have some good pics of their facilities if you are interested.
http://www.williamsairmotive.com/index.htm


Good Luck,
Doug
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Post by GAHorn »

Williams completely rebuilt both my wings during the airplane's reconstruction. Completely re-skinned them and replaced most ribs and one spar. Beautiful work. (Cessna Service Center told me, "Gee. I didn't realize we ever did epoxy polymide anti-corrosion inside these things!" (They didn't. Williams did.) :wink:
dacker
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Post by dacker »

Sorry I haven't replied to all of the info you guys have sent, my computer was away at the shop. Williams sounds pretty exciting, especially if they are into corrosion proofing. I have a call into them now, I will be anxious to hear what they can do. Maybe I will have the right wing gone over too! Hmmm, if I can get another 54 years out of 84A, that would put me right at 96, that would be fairly cost effective, not to mention the appreciation of a 108 year old airplane :lol: . Thanks,
David Acker
9584A
dacker
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Post by dacker »

I have talked with Paul Williams and he is going to be rebuilding a wing for me. I should have it sometime in August. Next, I will be getting a paint job and new upholstery, then I will Corrosion X the snot out of it. Hopefully, with a little future corrosion control, I will not be seeing this problem anymore.
David Acker
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Post by GAHorn »

David, I'm sorry this happened to you. If you don't mind me using your example for others....??
This is an exellent example of why a prebuy inspection should never be a prebuy inspection! It should be an annual inspection.
A "pre-buy" inspection is something we do to determine if what we're buying is 1) airworthy and 2) worth the price tag. The second item is already decided by us but subconsciously we're making a real leap of faith in that we are assuming the airplane to be as in item #1...airworthy.
We usually don't want to spend a lot of our airplane puchasing dollars on shopping, and we certainly don't want to spend it on someone else's airplane, so we try to get the pre-buy done on the cheap.
Most pre-buy's I've seen on light singles run $150-$300. They are not worth the paper they're written on, because 1)they carry no legal liability for the mechanic performing the prebuy to encourage a thorough committment by him/her to really dig into the aircraft, and 2) we're not paying enough money to get them to look any further.
The only inspection that has any legal status is an annual inspection. In that inspection the inspector is looking to determine 1) if the airplane meets it's type design, and 2) if the airplane is airworthy.
Whoever signed the last annual on Dave's airplane either missed that illegal repair or ignored it. They also missed that corrosion, or they ignored or deliberately overlooked it. That person, if confronted at this stage of the game, will make a strenuous argument that "it wasn't like that when I inspected it" and it'll take some money and effort to convince a court or authority any different. (And bringing the FAA in doesn't solve the problem. While it might apply some pressure to the last inspecting mechanic, the most you'll end up with will be a grounded airplane the Feds now know all about and a mechanic who has his certificate surrendered with no income now with which to pay you your damages. Everyone loses.)
But if you'd hired your own inspector, who performed an annual for a prebuy for you, and now next annual you find he'd missed that stuff, you have an excellent case for civil damages, so that would pressure him/her into correcting their oversight from that inspection. If that person were a certified repair station, you'd have them even more over the barrel, because the FAA would be a really big stick to swing over them, even more so than an individual mechanic. (They'd also have deeper pockets they'd want to protect and therefore would be more likely to make your damage recovery efforts much easier. They'd likely jump through hoops for you rather than risk enforcement action.)
A full-blown annual on a 170 costs $450-$750 in most parts of the country. (Plus repairs, of course. But those repairs would be borne by the seller,....you'd only be paying for the inspection labor.) You'd have a much better handle on what you're buying, and...if it goes correctly, you'll be starting out with an airplane and a fresh annual inspection signed off.
Ask yourself, "Would $450-$750 have been a better investment knowing what you now know?"
Sorry to keep harping on this subject, but it took me a long time to learn the lesson myself. I just hate to see people keep wasting money trying to re-invent the wheel.
Repeat after me..."There is no such thing as a pre-buy inspection. There is no such thing as a pre-buy inspection. There is no such thing as a pre-buy inspection....."
dacker
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Post by dacker »

OUCH... George! :oops: No, really, you speak sage advice. I was determined to try and buy my first aircraft without getting too emotionally involved. IMPOSSIBLE. I do believe when buying a 54 year old airplane that no matter how good of a pre-buy... I mean annual, it will still be somewhat of a crap shoot. I was counting on the mechanic to do a thorough airframe inspection so I would at least have a good honest airframe to start with, bottom line he did not. Therefore I am paying to replace a bad wing that could have killed me (or the many people who have flown with me, counting on my knowledge and experience to keep them safe). If using my experience as an example will save someone else from going through this headache , then I am all for it! I should have insisted on a more thorough inspection by a better mechanic. Luckily, the problem was discovered and will be remedied, and like I made reference to in my earlier post, in the great scheme of things it will be a relatively trivial expense. I will be looking forward to flying my freshly overhauled "A" to some of the Texas flyins.
David Acker
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Post by GAHorn »

The only reason I can be so cold about this issue, is because I've been there myself and done that already too! I've made a few purchases in the past using a "pre-buy" inspection, and every dang time!!...I got burnt!
After I woke up and started using only annual inspections for pre-buys,...things have gone much smoother.
Like the old German said, "Too soon Olt, und too late schmart!"

On one airplane, when I told the seller I would be having his airplane annualed at a Cessna Service Center.... he just took it off the market!! What does that tell us?
In another case, the seller was happy to let it be inspected per annual inspection forms,...but when the inspector found some seriously unairworthy items... he paid not only to fix the problems,...he paid for the annual inspection fees also!! The buyer (a friend of mine who'd asked me to guide him through the process) still owns it 6 years later and has no intentions of letting it go.
My own airplane won awards at Oshkosh, Sun-N-fun, and EAA SWRFI, but I still had it annualed as my prebuy. Glad I did too. The seller wasn't offended, the inspector found only one minor item, and the seller fixed it. My most expensive annual since (4 years) has been $275, and that was including all new (12) spark plugs. (The point is, that even when I know I'm buying a cream-puff, I still have a full-blown annual done.)
Don't skrimp on this.
dacker
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Post by dacker »

I hope this will be my last time to get burned on an airplane purchase. By the time all is said and done I should have a solid little "A" model that is worth about five to ten grand less than I have in it. Not really so bad unless I were planning to sell it soon. Even after new paint and interior I don't think the market would get me much more than about forty grand. Which is just as well since I plan on flying the heck out of it for a few years anyway. I bought this airplane to have a "relatively" cheap four place taildragger to build tailwheel experience, and to have something of my own to fly, speed wasn't even a consideration in the equation, dollars per hour was. When I am paying for it I will take 100 knots over 150 knots any day!
David
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Post by GAHorn »

I can't believe the timeliness of this subject.
Just this week I have rec'd a "pre-buy" inspection report from a certified repair station on a Citation jet a client of mine wishes to buy. (The client doesn't want to spend $20,000 on a phase 1-5 inspection (the rough equivalent to annual for such a plane) even though the airplane's price is over $1 mil. (Doh!) So the client authorized only a "pre-buy" inspection albeit at a cert. repair station that specializes in Citations.
The report is in. It found about $27K wrong with the plane that the seller will happily fix to complete the sale, and the client was all feely-good thinking they'd made the right decision in authorizing a "pre-buy" inspection, rather than the phase 1-5 I'd suggested (and which they'll have to do anyway this upcoming November!) So the buyer commits for the purchase and sends the money.
Yesterday, I found out the "pre-buy" inspection ran the engines up, saw they ran cool and made full-power, performed a good spectro-analysis of the oil, and a boroscope look-see and declared them just fine, ...but yesterday afternoon I was reading the engine logs and found out the recent overhaul re-used a turbine impeller that is life-limited and won't be allowed to make the next overhaul! (Sort of like saving money during overhaul by re-using the old piston rings. Buyer's quote: "But, they said the engines had just been overhauled!" Response: Yep. That's what the logs say allright,...very neatly using small print listing the used impellers being life-limited. They covered themselves.) This new airplane owner/buyer will have to have these engines torn down shortly and re-overhauled to replace that cycle-limited impeller! Cost? Approx. $220K.
(Moral: What does this tell us? That even a specialist in the make/model can't be trusted to cover all airworthiness items when a "pre-buy" inspection is used.)
There's no such thing as a pre-buy inspection. There's no such thing.....
dacker
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UPDATE

Post by dacker »

9584A finally flew today! :D I wound up getting my wing from Williams Airmotive out of Indianna, I was very pleased with their work! The old wing was really scary, I highly recommend that you insist on your mechanic removing the panels covering the fuel tanks and really give your wings a thourough inspection at annual! This annual has turned into a basic restoration. It seems that every time we pulled a panel, or took something apart we had to correct something. I am still in the process of correcting a lot of years of barnyard maintenance. Besides replacing the wing we also replaced the aileron cables ( they were connected with soft cotter pins instead of clevis pins), all of the wiring in the wing, and a lot in the cockpit with more to follow (lots of automotive and household stuff). I stripped the interior out, built a new speaker bracket and installed a new speaker, and will start on removing all of the old glue in order to zinc chromate the interior. Took apart the stiff fuel selector and cleaned it up. Spent an incredible amount of time it seems replacing fasteners, make patches, doublers and the like.
We have addressed a lot of small squawks that should have been taken care of years ago.
I have never seen my mechanic smile as big as when we finally rolled it out of his hangar, I haven't recieved the bill yet so I am sure he has a bigger smile waiting for me.
I should be off to the paint shop next $$$$$.
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