EZ Flap vs. Inertia Reels

[flyboy122]

Hi Folks,

My 170 came with a nice set of shoulder harnesses, a big improvement over my old Super Cub's lap belt, but when I snugged them up I quickly realized I couldn't reach that darn Cessna flap handle. I've been flying with them loose ever since. I've decided this is no longer acceptable, and have been looking for alternatives. I've come up with 2: inertial reel harnesses and the EZ Flap Handle Extension.

Has anybody used the EZ Flap? It looks like a neat setup, and I like the idea of not having to hunch over during go arounds, etc... But I'm worried it will get in the way in the cockpit, and with the long Cessna handle you need to take 2 shots at it to dump the flaps. http://www.ezflaphandle.com/

The only inertia reels I've found are the BAS units. By all accounts they are top notch, but unfortunately they charge accordingly. Does anyone know of any lower cost solutions for inertia reels? Can these be bought from a salvage yard and rewebbed?

Unfortunately this weekend a friend mine was killed when after a successful forced landing into a field he suffered a trauma during a slow speed rollover at the end of the rollout. Early indications are that his shoulder harness wasn't tight (his passenger walked away with only a few scratches). We all say it won't happen to us, or that we'll tighten the harness in an emergency. I bet my friend said that too. Time to take care of this one.

DEM

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

DEM a discussion, if you can call it that, was held some time ago and can be found if you search. The discussion was not one of our forum high points I'm afraid. As I recall no one had used it but plenty had something to say about it. I really don't want to see another EZ Flap bashing thread. And so my moderator sensors have been aroused.

Folks, only if you have actually used the EZ Flap and have something constructive to say, I'll allow it. Otherwise there is nothing more that could be said that wasn't said in the old thread.

I would prefer a good inertia reel setup as being the best solution even with an EZ Flap. And so for me, that is the answer.

Can you find inertia reels and reweb them and come up with your own mounting solution. Yes you can and I as well as a few others have done it and you can find threads here about it with pictures. But I'm hear to tell you, you won't save any money and you certainly won't save any time. As painful as it is for me to suggest it, buy the BAS, install them, know it is done well and you have a quality installation that will help protect you and don't look back.

[bagarre]

I went thru the trouble of making an inertia reel system for my plane to replicate the BAS system.
My situation was slightly unique as I already had the Hooker spar mod STC and thus the BAS STC wasn't an option.
I spent a lot of time and energy to make what BAS already is and If BAS would have been an option, I would have gladly paid their price to get the reels.

Before the inertia reels, I had regular shoulder harnesses installed. At 6'1", I didn't have an issue reaching the flap lever if I kept them lose....which is exactly what you don't want.
My wife, Daniela is 5'4" in heels. When she started flying the 170 it was CLEAR there was NO way she could have reached the flap handle without the inertia reels and even then it is a good stretch for the first notch. She also needs rudder pedal extensions tho. There could be a placard that states "You must be this high to fly this plane".

I don't have the EZFlap installed in my airplane but I have seen an early 172 with it installed. Looking at it, it makes sense for people that feel the 1st notch is a real stretch. I think Daniela's comment was, "I want that!". Thinking about how short my wife is, it makes sense.
If my plane had come with it, I wouldn't bother taking it out. It doesn't interfere with anything and you don't have to reach for the handle.
Would I install one? Not unless Daniela really flies a lot and tells me it's needed. But if I was 5'4" I probably would. The rudder pedal extensions were needed as she coudln't reach the pedals at all. She can still reach the flaps but it's not as comfortable as it could be for her.

A good comparison might be with the Door Steward system (which I just installed). Do you need it? No, not really. The doors have opened and closed just fine for 62 years. But it simplified the task more than expected.

So I think it's all in the eye of the beholder cuz Daniela was ready to buy it right then and there.

[daedaluscan]

I have just bought an EZ flap handle for my wife who will be completing her license in the spring. There is just no way she can reach the first notch with her shoulder harness anywhere near snug.

I think what I really need are height adjustable 172 seats, but that is another can of worms.

Ill post some pictures when I have it installed.

[hilltop170]

.................The only inertia reels I've found are the BAS units. By all accounts they are top notch, but unfortunately they charge accordingly. Does anyone know of any lower cost solutions for inertia reels? Can these be bought from a salvage yard and rewebbed? ................DEM

The worst thing anyone can do concerning fixed length shoulder harnesses is to fly with them loose, at any time. When they are loose, in an accident, your body will have an additional impact imposed on it when it hits the end of travel of a loose belt. The inertia reels always keep the belt snug, not tight against your body and work in any position the body is in whether leaning forward to set the flaps or sitting straight up. They are VERY cheap insurance that gets validated on a regular basis.

................I think what I really need are height adjustable 172 seats, but that is another can of worms.............

I just sold a set of older C-172 sets that had height adjustment only. The guy that bought them had the opposite problem, his head hit the roof so he wanted to lower the seat. There should not be a can of worms if you can find a set with height adjustment, just install them.

But, raising the seat will make it harder to reach the flap handle.

[daedaluscan]

But, raising the seat will make it harder to reach the flap handle.

I actually think she wants to be lower and further forward, my seats have been upholstered with a very full cushion and she sees fine over the panel. I would love to be lower, I touch the headliner.

[GAHorn]

The earlier discussion to which Bruce alludes was unfortunate because it began with a rule-violation by a non-member and then degraded into a general dogfight with a defensive-aggressive advertiser. I'm in agreement that it would be kind to be forgotten.

Fixed-length shoulder harnesses are a restriction to bending over. Inertial-reel harnesses are a solution to that problem.
The EZ flap handle, despite what some consider un-attractive, is one solution for reaching the flap handle without having to bend-over.
An airplane equipped with electric flaps is another. (I've actually become more fond of electric flaps now that I think about it.)

Those are different solutions, and I personally compromise by manipulations others might not like....
Deploying that first "notch" of flaps is the only problem for me. I have no problem retracting/stowing them, because after the latch is released (and with the aid of relative-wind)...I can slip my hand down the shaft and secure the flaps in the "up" position.
During initial arrival/approach, I slip out of my right harness to deploy the first "notch" of flaps, then re-insert my shoulder into the harness for the rest of the approach.

Inertia reel harnesses are nice. I prefer that solution to the EZ flap handle. But even inertia reel harnesses have issues. They only protect from forward motions and will NOT protect you from sideways impacts. If a wing hits a tree and spins the aircraft, they are not likely to save you...they are quite likely to add injuries of their own. (NASA described that problem in the Discovery shuttle accident report quite vividly. Inertia reel harnesses actually contributed to amputations due to violent sideway movement of the occupants. Only fixed harnesses will provide upper torso support when the vehicle yaws laterally, and even then there are hazards to the head/neck.)

I dis-agree that loose harnesses are "worse" than no harness. That can only be subjective as opposed to the impact of the head against the instrument panel, and the latter is after-all...the real object, in my opinion. I realize that this thread started over a "slow roll over". But each and every accident has idiosyncracies which contribute to the difficulty in emergency planning, and I believe that any harness is better than no harness. I have been saving for inertia harness because I find the EZ flap more ungainly than slipping out of tight fixed harness for a short moment on downwind. (And I've seen previous issues with the flap-handle latching mechanism design and don't wish to add complexity to it.)

If God had meant women to fly he would have made the sky pink. (That was for Sandy.) But if your wife can't reach the flap handle, even with inertia harnesses (which are a good idea in these things), then the EZ flap might be your best solution for this airplane. (When you install it, tho'...be certain to inspect the flap latch release mechanism and pay attention to the long rod where it bends 90-degrees and passes thru the latch-lever. A failure of that during a go around can kill you despite the other gadgets.)

See both discussions:
http://www.cessna170.org/forums/viewtop ... =32&t=6460
and
http://www.cessna170.org/forums/viewtop ... =32&t=2231

[sfarringer]

...then I'm done!

[flyboy122]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the advice. I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest with the ez flap. I'll do a better job of searching next time.

Was flying around this weekend and decided that inertia reels are right for me. I realized the ez flap would interfere with my daughter's carseat, and she really likes flying, so I wouldn't expect that problem to go away. Plus it turns out I'm a "leaner". Once I consciously thought about it I was surprised how much leaning and moving around I did looking for traffic, fiddling with radios, etc... Thinking about it most of my time is in lap belt only aircraft, so maybe I just developed that habit, but oh well.

DEM

[GAHorn]

Thinking "out loud" ...here, in the forums... is a GOOD THING. And I also believe it's OK to re-visit old discussions ...or re-open them for review.
I've come to the view that there's no such thing as a "bad re-hash".
After-all, it's thru discussion that we all learn and improve, and these ARE the "discussion-forums"!

(Advice to search for earlier threads are meant to add existing information to on-going discussions. ... Not to stop them.)

Glad you brought the subject back up! (It also gave a few of us hot-heads an opportunity to speak more reasonably about the product we previously denigrated.)

[daedaluscan]

Its going to be really interesting how the EZ flap works out. I had a look at it in the plane yesterday and I cant help but feel it is going to clutter up the cockpit a lot. I love the flap handle the way it is, but my wife simply cant reach the first notch without ducking below the panel.

Ill try and get it on over the weekend.

First impressions are that it is very nicely made and should function well, I'm just concerned about the space. In their literature they advise using it for only the first two notches, and then switching to the Johnson bar for more flap which is just another level of complication.

[flyboy122]

HI Guys,

I'm looking at the BAS harnesses, and they offer 2 styles. The "standard" version has the shoulder strap attached to the lap belts. The "seaplane" version has should straps that attach to the buckle when the pilot puts them on. I guess I'm much more used to the latter, hence they are in my comfort zone, but I'm thinking about the attached version that it might be kinda handy. Has anybody used this style before? Pros, cons?

I also saw in the MX library copy of the STC that Association members get a 5% discount. is that still valid?

Thanks,
DEM

[lowNslow]

HI Guys,

I'm looking at the BAS harnesses, and they offer 2 styles. The "standard" version has the shoulder strap attached to the lap belts. The "seaplane" version has should straps that attach to the buckle when the pilot puts them on. I guess I'm much more used to the latter, hence they are in my comfort zone, but I'm thinking about the attached version that it might be kinda handy. Has anybody used this style before? Pros, cons?

I also saw in the MX library copy of the STC that Association members get a 5% discount. is that still valid?

Thanks,
DEM

They actually have 3 versions, the third style uses a rotary buckle. Very nice but extra dollars.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I have the utility style (not BAS).

Pros: You don't have to wear them and when your not the shoulder harness hang straight down behind the front seats out of the way.

Cons: You don't have to wear them.

I always wear them and most of my passengers do as well. My partner does not choose to wear them and he is happy they just hang behind the seat.

I could see that the standard permanently fixed buckles could be easier to find and put on because in order to find the seat belt you sit in the seat and reach back to for the harnesses and you automatically find the lap belts. In contrast I have to find my lap belts and drape them over my lap without buckling them, then reach back and get the shoulder harnesses and putt the one side lap belt buckle through the harnesses then buckle. Not a big deal really.

I could see how the permanently attached might hinder egress because they essentially form a loop for body parts to get tangled in. In contrast when I unbuckle mine the shoulder harness almost fall to their hanging position behind the seats by them selves.

Probably is as many pros as cons for each style.

If all I could get was the permanently attached, I'd install them and be happy. My partner would not.

[170C]

I, like Bruce, have the non inertia reel shoulder straps that do not attach permanently to the seat belts. The times I have flown in planes with the BAS inertial reels I really liked them as they are much more user friendly than what I have. If they weren't so unreasonably priced I would have them, but that is another matter. Mine are comfortable and like others have stated I wear them fairly loose in order to reach the flap handle release button. I would hope I would have the presence of mind to tighten them if I saw a forced landing coming. My only real problem using them is if I am wearing a heavy coat as that makes reaching the flap button difficult. Guess I need a better cabin heater! Its strange to me how an identical Cessna cabin heater can be so much more effective than mine. I have all the correct scat hoses and my heater control on the firewall works properly, but mine won't run me out if the temps are 40 or below while some similar planes will flat burn you up at those temps if left on max?????