Eric, I believe you're misinformed.
The Franklin engine situation has gotten so bad it's possibly going to orphan many owners. Our own member who is a Franklin distributor has personally informed me that the Chechs sold Franklin to P & W who has no interest in producing piston engines and have surrendered the production certificates. He is afraid his business is over and that engine is probably dead.
The existing (old production) 1200 hour TBO (wishful thinking) Franklins are still around and parts can be scrounged for them, but at considerably greater trouble than the Lycoming and Continental 360's. For the expense and long-term planning I don't think I'd consider it.
The ".... O-470 conversion,otherwise known as the Cessna 180. And for that there's the Ponk +50 (O-520) conversion. And then there's the IO-520 conversion,also known as the Cessna 185. Then there's the IO-550 conversion,and the IO-540 conversion..." none of which are suitable for 170 conversions are all too heavy to be installed in a 170 for CG purposes. Please tell me which of those engines are STC'd for a 170?
180 Lycoming STC
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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blueldr
- Posts: 4442
- Joined: Thu May 02, 2002 3:16 am
I've never seen a lyc. IO-360 in any Cessna Conversion except in a C-172 on an experimental certificate, and the original owner was never able to get it approved. He was limited to a 40 mile radius, so the airplane was practically useless.
The Cont. IO-360 fits right inside the cowling without any modification And the STC even uses the same exhaust.
My Cont.IO-360 runs fine on mogas 91.----but, of course, I never use it!
The Cont. IO-360 fits right inside the cowling without any modification And the STC even uses the same exhaust.
My Cont.IO-360 runs fine on mogas 91.----but, of course, I never use it!
BL
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GAHorn
- Posts: 21291
- Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm
Blue Leader, did you put 175 wings on your airplane also? And how does your STC solve the engine mount situation, ....custom?
I need a copy of the installation (instructions, parts list, etc) paperwork for TIC170A files if you have any.
Did the Pilot Lounge Only problem get solved?
I need a copy of the installation (instructions, parts list, etc) paperwork for TIC170A files if you have any.
Did the Pilot Lounge Only problem get solved?
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
George,my comments which you quoted were meant to be facetious. Guess I should have posted a smiley face or whatever. Really,in effect,Cessna did the first 170 engine conversion when they introduced the 225-horse 180 in 1953. Like Harold sez,just a hotrod 170 with a funny tail. None of the big Continental's are approved for 170's,but the O-470 is installed in some Super-Stinsons out there.
I have an old magazine which showcases a straight-tail 172 taildragger with an IO-360 Lycoming,installed under STC SA610SW. Don't know if that STC is being sold,in any event it is apparently for the 172 not the 170.
I wasn't aware of the PZL-Franklin being orphaned-- too bad,especially for those who've done this mod.
George,I believe XP Mods sells an engine mount along with their STC for the IO-360 Cont. conversion. Your comment about a custom engine mount must stem from reading the article in the latest 170 News about using a T-41 mount as part of someone's IO-360 conversion,but it not fitting?
I feel that Cessna shoulda designed a little more poop into the 170. I wish there was a "bolt-on" mod to improve things,a good example being re-engining a 125 Swift with a 145. Maybe convert a C-145 into an O-360 using IO-360 cylinders/crank/whatever? It ain't gonna happen,I know,but a guy can daydream can't he?
Eric
I have an old magazine which showcases a straight-tail 172 taildragger with an IO-360 Lycoming,installed under STC SA610SW. Don't know if that STC is being sold,in any event it is apparently for the 172 not the 170.
I wasn't aware of the PZL-Franklin being orphaned-- too bad,especially for those who've done this mod.
George,I believe XP Mods sells an engine mount along with their STC for the IO-360 Cont. conversion. Your comment about a custom engine mount must stem from reading the article in the latest 170 News about using a T-41 mount as part of someone's IO-360 conversion,but it not fitting?
I feel that Cessna shoulda designed a little more poop into the 170. I wish there was a "bolt-on" mod to improve things,a good example being re-engining a 125 Swift with a 145. Maybe convert a C-145 into an O-360 using IO-360 cylinders/crank/whatever? It ain't gonna happen,I know,but a guy can daydream can't he?
Eric
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GAHorn
- Posts: 21291
- Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm
Yeah, Eric, I did read that article, and I've also had it pointed out to me previously that a T-41 mount won't simply be a bolt-on replacement due to the stepped firewall of later airplanes.
The heavier engines were OK on later airplanes because Cessna changed the tailfeathers to larger surfaces giving more control and better CG range. (As cool as the round tailfeathers are to look at, they simply don't have the surface area later models have. A larger horiz. stabilizer increases CG range measureably, and the '53 180 model really had a lot more engine weight/CG capability because not only was the horizontal more surface area, but it was a trimmable stabilizer as well!)
The Cont. IO-360 supposedly has a carbureted conversion capability as well, I'm told. That would allow the fuel system to remain unmodified, but a simple header-tank will take care of fuel injection return lines. If I were to do a mod, I think that's the one I'd do. The big drawback is increased fuel burn at higher power settings. Either 175 wings/tanks and/or a Javelin tank would be nice in that case.
The heavier engines were OK on later airplanes because Cessna changed the tailfeathers to larger surfaces giving more control and better CG range. (As cool as the round tailfeathers are to look at, they simply don't have the surface area later models have. A larger horiz. stabilizer increases CG range measureably, and the '53 180 model really had a lot more engine weight/CG capability because not only was the horizontal more surface area, but it was a trimmable stabilizer as well!)
The Cont. IO-360 supposedly has a carbureted conversion capability as well, I'm told. That would allow the fuel system to remain unmodified, but a simple header-tank will take care of fuel injection return lines. If I were to do a mod, I think that's the one I'd do. The big drawback is increased fuel burn at higher power settings. Either 175 wings/tanks and/or a Javelin tank would be nice in that case.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
George
Over time I've certainly gotten the impression that you're a Continental guy
It's like high wing low wing or Ford Chevy to me. All have their strong and weak points.
I'd really like to fly an IO-360 conversion someday just to compare it to my Lycoming. I think the carburated version is 195hp. I like the simplicity of the carb but you do sacrifice in performance due to poor fuel distribution. I like the idea of no cowl blisters but then I don't mind them all that much. The constant speed prop would be a dead giveaway anyhow.
Maybe if someone wants to do a conversion they should look for both the O-360 and the IO-360 and do whichever one they get the best deal on. To me the Lycoming A!A is very hard to come by and is overpriced due to the homebuilders demand. Whichever is done it will be a better airplane for those who need the extra power.
Over time I've certainly gotten the impression that you're a Continental guy
It's like high wing low wing or Ford Chevy to me. All have their strong and weak points.
I'd really like to fly an IO-360 conversion someday just to compare it to my Lycoming. I think the carburated version is 195hp. I like the simplicity of the carb but you do sacrifice in performance due to poor fuel distribution. I like the idea of no cowl blisters but then I don't mind them all that much. The constant speed prop would be a dead giveaway anyhow.
Maybe if someone wants to do a conversion they should look for both the O-360 and the IO-360 and do whichever one they get the best deal on. To me the Lycoming A!A is very hard to come by and is overpriced due to the homebuilders demand. Whichever is done it will be a better airplane for those who need the extra power.
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
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blueldr
- Posts: 4442
- Joined: Thu May 02, 2002 3:16 am
!. The STC for the Cont. IO-360 comes from XP mods and includes the engine mount. I believe they have the only multiple use STC.
2. The Cont. IO-360 is only a Fuel injected engine. The intake manifold is on the top of the engine and I'm pretty sure they never had a carbureted model.
3, It is rated 210 HP. The 195 HP model is simply RPM restricted.
Some turbo charged models may be rated higher.
4. I did not yet install the C-175 wings. My fuel consumption AT THE SAME AIRSPEEDS was the same as the C-145 engine.
5.If you are interested in a high performance C-170, the modification is wonderful. It's a really sweet rinning engine, However, if you're looking for more capacity it is not at all an economically viable mod. I don't believe it can be done for under thirty to thirty-five thousand dollars even if you do most of the work yourself. Figure; engine $15000
STC 5000
prop 7000
boost pump500
Exhaust 1000
and on and on and on.
Better just put the money and the C-170 together and buy a 180 or 182.
But man what a neet C170 it makes!
2. The Cont. IO-360 is only a Fuel injected engine. The intake manifold is on the top of the engine and I'm pretty sure they never had a carbureted model.
3, It is rated 210 HP. The 195 HP model is simply RPM restricted.
Some turbo charged models may be rated higher.
4. I did not yet install the C-175 wings. My fuel consumption AT THE SAME AIRSPEEDS was the same as the C-145 engine.
5.If you are interested in a high performance C-170, the modification is wonderful. It's a really sweet rinning engine, However, if you're looking for more capacity it is not at all an economically viable mod. I don't believe it can be done for under thirty to thirty-five thousand dollars even if you do most of the work yourself. Figure; engine $15000
STC 5000
prop 7000
boost pump500
Exhaust 1000
and on and on and on.
Better just put the money and the C-170 together and buy a 180 or 182.
But man what a neet C170 it makes!
BL
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R COLLINS
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 9:23 pm
Joe Johnson down at Luscombe Acres (TX) had a 170 on the field in the late '80s that had a IO-360 Continental on it. It was being flown under an experimental certificate. The plane was bare metal at the time and whoever owned it was under the weather and trying to sell it. If I remember correctly they had extended the boot cowl (in front of the existing firewall) so the cowling would clear. Wished I knew the N number on it. Has anyone seen this plane or was it converted back to the original configuration? Just curious, the price was very reasonable compared to todays standards, would have been cool if it was ever certificated. Randal
51 Cessna 170A N1263D
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
The 170 Book has an article by Texas member Billy Lusk about converting his ragwing to an IO-360 powerplant,looks like this was back around 1979. They got a "one-time STC". I've heard people use this term before,I don't know if this is just a "field approval" via 337 or just what. Lush mentions at the end of the article that he was living at Luscombe Acres.The ragwing in question,N4277V, is listed in the latest membership directory as being owned by a member in Utah.
The 170 Book also lists STC SA00485SE for IO-360 installation in 170B as being issued in 1997 to Assn member CK Gackstetter of Washington. It doesn't say if this is a "one time" STC or not,but since it is issued a regular STC number I would assume that it is a regular multiple-use STC.
Another article in The 170 Book,by founding member John D Benham,sez he obtained a "one time " STC to install an IO-360 in his A model in 1981. I believe it has since been sold & now lives in the Boise Idaho area.
Tom Anderson told me several years ago that he had converted several 170's to the IO-360 on a field-approval basis,until the FAA got on him & told him he would need to get an STC to do any more. Which he got.
Eric
The 170 Book also lists STC SA00485SE for IO-360 installation in 170B as being issued in 1997 to Assn member CK Gackstetter of Washington. It doesn't say if this is a "one time" STC or not,but since it is issued a regular STC number I would assume that it is a regular multiple-use STC.
Another article in The 170 Book,by founding member John D Benham,sez he obtained a "one time " STC to install an IO-360 in his A model in 1981. I believe it has since been sold & now lives in the Boise Idaho area.
Tom Anderson told me several years ago that he had converted several 170's to the IO-360 on a field-approval basis,until the FAA got on him & told him he would need to get an STC to do any more. Which he got.
Eric
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spiro
- Posts: 193
- Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:08 am
I went through this when I wanted to put floats on my 170A. This was my decision process:
- A stock motored 170 makes a lousy float plane. It works, but it's a marginal performer with 2 on board and reasonable fuel.
- The cost to convert to a 180hp Lyc would be *at least* $30K. That's with a used engine and me doing all the work for nothing. And you really shouldn't discount the labor portion - all the conversions take quite a bit of work. Realistically, by the time you're ready to fly again it'd be closer to $40K.
- A Franklin 220hp can be done for about the same price and makes for great performance (and commensurately poor endurance). But everyone I know with one has had reliabilty problems - even with the new Polish ones. And George has discussed availability/support issues.
- The Cont IO360 would be terrific but that's a very expensive engine. I doubt you could do one for less than $40K. IIRC, a factory rebuild is 50% more expensive than an O-470.
- Many claim they're going to recoup a lot of their investment by selling off their old C-145/O-300 but they only seem to sell for $3-4000, if the crank is still good.
- All things considered, it's cheaper to buy one already converted than do one yourself. A 180hp 170 seems to sell for a $10-20K premium over a 145hp one.
- For the price of a 180hp 170 with a float kit and on floats, you can buy a 180, and have a whole lot more of them to choose from. A 180 has at least 50% more fuel capacity, a higher gross, a baggage door, better parts support, and more float choices.
For me it was a no-brainer, I bought a 180 already on floats, for probably less than a comparable 180hp 170 would've cost. Kept my 170 for wheels and skis where the stock 145hp and 80" prop suit me just fine.
- A stock motored 170 makes a lousy float plane. It works, but it's a marginal performer with 2 on board and reasonable fuel.
- The cost to convert to a 180hp Lyc would be *at least* $30K. That's with a used engine and me doing all the work for nothing. And you really shouldn't discount the labor portion - all the conversions take quite a bit of work. Realistically, by the time you're ready to fly again it'd be closer to $40K.
- A Franklin 220hp can be done for about the same price and makes for great performance (and commensurately poor endurance). But everyone I know with one has had reliabilty problems - even with the new Polish ones. And George has discussed availability/support issues.
- The Cont IO360 would be terrific but that's a very expensive engine. I doubt you could do one for less than $40K. IIRC, a factory rebuild is 50% more expensive than an O-470.
- Many claim they're going to recoup a lot of their investment by selling off their old C-145/O-300 but they only seem to sell for $3-4000, if the crank is still good.
- All things considered, it's cheaper to buy one already converted than do one yourself. A 180hp 170 seems to sell for a $10-20K premium over a 145hp one.
- For the price of a 180hp 170 with a float kit and on floats, you can buy a 180, and have a whole lot more of them to choose from. A 180 has at least 50% more fuel capacity, a higher gross, a baggage door, better parts support, and more float choices.
For me it was a no-brainer, I bought a 180 already on floats, for probably less than a comparable 180hp 170 would've cost. Kept my 170 for wheels and skis where the stock 145hp and 80" prop suit me just fine.
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