Tailwheel Steering

FredM · Post by **FredM** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:23 am

consider having the rigging of your rudder checked as well. If the rigging is off and you don't have full rudder deflection to one side your tailwheel won't either.

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:28 am

I had heard that the 3214T (with turned-up arms) was the fix for the 170's poor tailwheel steering, so I installed one. It wasn't the cure-all, but it did help. It does improve the geometry of things, but there's still as much "up" as left & right being applied to the steering arms. Oh yeah, I have compression springs too,and like them, but the bottom line is that I still have to help the steering out with a little bit of braking.

Eric

Dave Clark · Post by **Dave Clark** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:25 pm

If you don't use a grease plate you have not learned anything. As I've posted elsewhere the simple and clean grease plate is a couple of black garbage can plastic bags under each wheel. You can push the plane sideways just about with one finger. No mess, no fuss.

akflyer · Post by **akflyer** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:21 pm

Thanks to all for the great info! Kevin

punkin170b · Post by **punkin170b** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:06 pm

This is a great thread and has already answered a few questions I have. Thanks fellas...

We are in the process of completely rebuilding the tailcone assembly (station 208 and aft). We have found all the parts necessary to rebuild it with the later style pulley tailwheel steering mechanism and are considering this before we reassemble the unit. Does anyone have a digital picture of the tailwheel assembly, including the fairings that cover the cable exits on the side/belly of the tailcone? If so, can you PLEASE email it to me at squawk1200@earthlink.net?

Thanks for all the info and suggestions. You never know who you are helping out - they may not even be actively contributing to the thread sometimes!

Matt

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:32 am

Matt,why are you considering converting to the later-style steering? Is it that much better? The early set-up may not steer all that great-- it ain't that bad either-- but I like it as it is SIMPLE. Simple is something I am liking more & more in airplanes as time goes by.
No bellcranks, splitters, or whatever inside the tailcone to break,go out of adjustment,etc.
My two cents worth....

Eric

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:41 am

Dave Clark wrote:If you don't use a grease plate you have not learned anything. As I've posted elsewhere the simple and clean grease plate is a couple of black garbage can plastic bags under each wheel. You can push the plane sideways just about with one finger. No mess, no fuss.

I remember you mentioning this once before,Dave. Great tip!
Saw your airplane at Bellingham Sunday, I was up there visiting Garth & Debbie.

Eric

johneeb · Post by **johneeb** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:26 am

Dave,
Another good alternative if you don't have Garbage bags is Wax paper. You remember wax paper don't you.

Johneb

punkin170b · Post by **punkin170b** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:11 pm

Hey Eric,

I KNEW somebody was gonna ask why! It all started when we acquired the new tailcone skin. It came with the cutouts for the cable exits. We started weighing the extra work to cover and hide the holes versus building up the newer steering mechanism. I have tried just about all the suggestions as written in this thread (plus a couple others) and have never been happy with the steering. The steering in the 185 I have flown was quite good. With all this in mind, we elected to set it up with the similar steering mechanism.

Still hoping somebody has a pic they can send me... Thanks guys.

Matt

rudymantel · Post by **rudymantel** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:51 am

My 170B gave me fits taxiing when I bought it. I got the mains aligned as per Eric's advice (and the Cessna 100 series Service Manual), using newspapers instead of the greased plates. Works well and a lot simpler and less messy.
I also found the bolt holding the Scott 3200 tailwheel to the large leaf spring was loose. Used a new bolt with cotter key and solved that problem. Coil spring tensions were OK.
Now the airplane taxied nicely, except in a crosswind. Eventually replaced the single-puck Cleveland brakes with Cleveland double-puck wheels and brakes (Kit 66-90 from Spruce) under FAA field approval. Best thing I ever did- can now taxi in a crosswind with ease. I highly recommend this to all 170 owners.
Rudy

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:46 am

Having just completed some extensive work on the plane, I thought I'd toss one more variable into the mix regarding steering issues... Brake Cylinder brackets - p/ns (for the "B"s, anyway) 0411549 & 0411550. I'd always had some minor arguments with my steering particularly when trying to maneuver in relatively close spaces on the ramp. When we went through the plane this year we found a couple of things that contributed to a lack of effective steering; excessively worn attach points for the brake pedals (big ovalled holes) and problems with the brake cylinder brackets.

There are four brackets on the pilot side; two per master cylinder (they sandwich the master cylinder rod). Three of the four were bent and the fourth was broken. Obviously, fifty years of use had taken their toll. This made the master cylinders sloppy in their mounts and interfered somewhat with the movement of the rudder pedals.

The various points addressed previously in this thread are certainly the more likely culprits. But, if you've gone through all those and are still having some problems, get up under there and take a *real* good look at your rudder pedals and master cylinder brackets. Sometimes the problem isn't a single item, but rather the sum of a few smaller items. I have to admit she steers a whole lot easier now.

Just some additional food for thought.

Jr.CubBuilder · Post by **Jr.CubBuilder** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:53 pm

I just went through some of the same steering issues with my 170 that I bought a month ago. I was convinced that it was the castor assembly, but it wasn't. It turned out to be bad wheel bearings for the tailwheel itself, and I think they were over-torqued as well. All that drag caused the assembly to want to trail straight behind the plane.

Curtis Brown · Post by **Curtis Brown** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:35 pm

I have noticed that the steering arm on the tailwheel has bent upwards too much and needs to be replaced. I have seen the steering arm that is stronger and find that it is for the Scott 3400. Is it interchangable with the Scott 3200?

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:58 pm

Curtis, what you may have seen is a 3400 but that particular model is normally set up for a tubular-type spring such as on a 185.. The heavy-duty steering arm, with bent-up ends is also installed as a standard item on the 3200A tailwheel, and can also be installed on the 3200 as a retrofit.
I'd be curious as to how your arms got bent, however.
Normally, when the aircraft comes off the ground, the steering chains tighten up because of the loss of weight on the gear's leafsprings allows the tailwheel assy to drop. If the steering chains are too tight, it may cause bending of the steering arm. If that overly tight steering-chain condition is not cured, it may also bend even the heavier duty arm. (It can also seriously stress the rudder bellcrank or tailwheel steering cable system.)
Ordinarily the chains should be only JUST taut with the airplane on the ground. The steering springs should not be stretched noticeably. (Also, the so-called "compression" springs can contribute to the problem of bending the steering arm because they get ever stiffer until they become virtually solid at their extreme compression. (Unlike the original tension springs which will demonstrate any such abuse by taking a stretched "set".
Hope this helps.

mvivion · Post by **mvivion** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:17 pm

Part of the problem with the steering arms on the Scott tailwheels has to do with the steering geometry on the 170 (and other aircraft), and the fact that Scott seems to be having some materials issues at present. At least I know of at least a couple of steering arms that were brand new and bent with little apparent abuse. There is talk among some aircraft manufacturers that Scott may be having some materials issues, but I don't know that to be true. In any case, the steering chains on the 170 pull upward to steer the steering arms. On the stock 3200 tailwheel steering arm, the pull is upward and forward on a horizontal piece of rather thin metal. Hitting a rock with the tailwheel can easily bend the steering arm, for example. A shimmy event (which should be researched to find the cause in any case) will almost certainly cause steering arm damage.

The 3214T steering arm is both stronger, and has upturned steering arms, which helps to ease the steering geometry issue a bit on the 170. It does help, and the arms are quite a bit stronger. It won't fix a shimmy event, or prevent it, though.

George is correct that you want to make certain that there isn't something inherently wrong with your steering system first. Changing arms won't necessarily fix something that's installed wrong.

If you buy a 3214T steering arm, make certain you purchase the appropriate dust caps as well. You can modify your existing ones, but it probably isn't worth the effort. Otherwise, it bolts right on, and is a much stronger arm.

Mike V