The final chapter of 93A.What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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RCoulter
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The final chapter of 93A.What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by RCoulter »

I had posted here on the forums on June 19th about an electrical/interior re-work I had done on 93A and getting it back into annual and airworthy. This is the final story of 93A...for now. I hope someday that the tail number flies again.

The plane, N9793A, was purchased September 30th of 2023 and it was out of annual. We ferried it north to 6Y6 St Helen in Michigan where we have our hangars and I got to work. By the start of summer I had rewired much of the circuitry behind the panel, new wing wiring, new switches, circuit board. refurbished and built a new interior, some engine work and then my first full annual. Also had a cool new plexi made from Brian here at the association. Still cannot thank him enough.

When we, myself and my former instructor, purchased the plane...I was a second year pilot with a little over ninety hours total flight time. Nine hours in a bushed-out Super Cub and around ninety landings in that. I had decades of professional flight and racing simulation experience and the same as far as fabrication experience. Blah Blah blah.

Nine months later... Up at 6Y6 I went from the new kid on the block at age forty nine, who had flown but not worked on planes. To going through what felt like a college course on the 170 from an A&P I/A (family friend/mentor), who has thirteen of his own planes, built and restored many planes, several of them 170's and is also a 170 owner. I spent many hours on here learning from the vast database of knowledge the members provide. Our airport manager up at 6Y6 then decided to retire. So I ended up the airport manager of our fun little airport to boot. Have many changes in store for that place and it will be so much fun! It was certainly looking like it was gonna be a fun fourth of July party up at 6Y6. We have a hell of a fireworks show over the airport and we were gonna do some flying over the weekend. Explore Northern Michigan!

On the morning of July fourth, I was down south in Dowagiac C91 and was finishing up my insurance requirements and then was going to head north with the family to St Helen for the holiday weekend. My plane partner was just starting to work on his requirements and was on his way to the field. While the CFII and I were waiting for him to arrive, we went up, did ten or so landings and finished up my requirements. The weather was great, winds were calm and the plane was running like a top.

I was excited that so many of the decisions I had made in regard to what parts I replaced and the work I performed...were actually very noticeable to me. I could tell that the new yoke balls I milled out on the Bridgeport were fluid with a very tight tolerance and with little-to-no slop. Spending the crazy amount McFarlane wanted on the new universal joints was also a great choice. The rubber that covers the joint really smoothened out the forward and back travel. I could just tell the controls felt smoother than anything I had flown prior...and night and day difference from when I did the initial ground work to heat the engine before we hangered her up and started working. In the air...she was fantastically smooth!

At 10:30 A.M, on July 4th, 2024, I felt comfortable and was ready to just land the hell out of the plane after the holiday and prepare to fly it to Airventure to be on display.

I got out of the plane knowing that, as we were landing primarily on the asphalt and with the stock soft gear legs and 800 tires, this bird could get squirrely fast. But once you knew what she wanted...it got very manageable. The key is getting to that point without an error and hoping the plane would take whatever abuse an error may cause as he was training. My plane partner had done an hour or so the day before, it was a tough hour...and I knew that he was a bit nervous. So I stayed to watch his second lesson. Everything looked good for his first seven landings. He was starting to build skill and lock in the handful of action items that he needed to repeat each takeoff and landing to finalize his skillset and understand what this bird wanted. Tail came up, he followed suit with appropriate rudder and so on. Things were looking...good. Now let me say, this pilot was my former instructor for my PPL, is a CFII, MEI and a professional PC-12 and Citation pilot. He has mad piloting skills. But this bird is a tailwheel, and you have to hit your marks, especially on the asphalt, and always be ready until it is stopped. We all know this...because it is so very true. History taught us that knowledge. Not history of perfect landings...history of what I was about to witness.

Long story longer, as he came in for the eighth landing, I filmed the whole thing...he touched the mains down perfect, tail stayed up, rudder work looked good...and then he brought the tail down nice and smooth. I was thinking...just lost rudder authority...be ready on them brakes! He rolled out to about twenty five miles per hour and I thought he was good to go at that point, so I stopped filming. The second I hit the record button to stop filming I saw the tail swerve a bit to the right and then back to the left...the correction was a bit much for asphalt but wasn't horrible...then...in a split second, I watched the fruits of nine months of work and my plans of a fun weekend of flying in the new-to-me plane...disappear.

As the tail went to the left, the left main axle broke, the main wheel flew out of sight and the plane skidded to the right. As the steel dagger that is now the gear leg scraped across the pavement, it finally found the dirt on the side of the runway. As the gear leg skewered itself into the ground, the plane abruptly spun around facing the opposite direction and immediately stopped and tipped over on the left wing. The pilot side door shooting out past the wingtip. A split second later a loud boom reached me and I thought...wow...that was violent...and hoped no one was hurt. And then of course...I thought there went Airventure! I hopped in the truck and raced down the runway to make sure they were okay. Thankfully...no one was hurt.

After all the time spent working on this plane. The decisions I made on what upgrades I did...what I was gonna do after Airventure...and then after that. I wish I knew then...what I learned watching this happen and walking up to the now totaled plane.

The left gear leg had folded under the plane and ripped the bottom of the fuselage open like a sardine can. As it folded, it tore the pilot side door post in half at yoke height. The gear leg ended up completely flipped over, with the attachment point in the gearbox area lifting up and just under his knee...this could have been a major injury. When the plane stopped and tipped over the left wing had struck the ground and forced the top side of the now torn in half door post, over and into the yoke. Had his hand not fell off the yoke from the impact, he would have lost it. The top of the door post then flexed back about four inches to the left of the yoke in its final resting place. The left wing was buckled about half way down. I thought...there went all the work I had just done fishing new wires through the wings! The left side of the rear stabilizer hit the ground and the prop blade was sticking in the ground about a foot. The gear leg was pointing at the right side tire just under the co-pilot door.

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I had just remade the backing for the front interior panels out of 1/16" Kydex and then wrapped in UltraLeather. What a good choice and will do it again! It stopped some of the aluminum from protruding through the weak backing that was there prior. The Kydex was marred beyond belief...but not punctured and it certainly saved him from injury. Kydex panels will be on all six panels in my new 170.

Four days earlier I sat in the hangar finishing up the annual with a few squawks I was going to address after Airventure and few upgrades I wanted to do. The first of which was hollow steel axles. Imagine that...the first upgrade I wanted to do, one that I had almost done a few days earlier, was now the one thing that could have possibly stopped damage...or limited it to a bent axle and maybe a little wingtip damage. All things we could have repaired quickly.

Sure one could say, well if he didn't overcorrect or had this happened or if he was a better pilot, you would not need that axle. Sure...but in reality and like in a race car, doing things to allow less attrition to any part of the racecar and allow more room for error for the driver is the basis of modern automotive engineering. Same thing in planes...same reason Cessna would make changes to airframes over the years to make them safer. They also make changes to appease the marketing and legal departments and make them worse. But in this case...nine hundred bucks could have stopped the total loss of a precious-to-me aircraft.

And there was a CFII on board? Yes there was. The CFII, who is a thirty thousand hour pilot, twelve thousand hour tailwheel pilot...great friend and did I mention an amazing pilot...would have saved it had the axle not broke. The initial overcorrection back to the right by the pilot was a quick knee jerk reaction and when the CFII jumped in I could tell he had grabbed the plane so to speak...probably via the use of a lot of brake as the rudder and tailwheel were not too effective at that speed...and then the axle broke. Nine hundred dollars in parts could have allowed him to most likely roll it off the runway into the field and turn it around. Something he has had to do before in his Super Cub when students had brain farts. Probably why it has 32" ABW. I know just those tires alone have saved his plane as it has gone off the end of the grass strip a few times.

Parts...mods...upgrades...a part could have changed the outcome for the better! Maybe a bent axle, maybe a bent wingtip, maybe nothing. But I know this CFII...I know his history of bush flying...and I know he would have minimalized the damage from the mistake. If the plane just had a tiny wider margin for error...margins that were pre-defined by the choices I made up to this point. Choices I made...about parts!

In my opinion, there is no better work that can be done on a plane than the work done by the owner. The most important time spent as an owner that doesn't wrench on the plane themself, is the time spent to at least understand the reason behind available upgrades, the pros and cons and so on. If you are being sold on options, or any upgrades, or being told something you should buy or do. Is it worth your money and why? You won't know if you don't know. Why do people out there run large tires, what do those tires stress on the axle assembly or the gearbox? Discussions commonly found here on these forums. I am so glad I spent the time learning from my A&P I/A, as well as the countless hours I spent on here reading the debates between members on mods or the vast amount of knowledge that exists within the walls of the C170A. It sure helped me out.

Some may say..."its your first plane dude...you are a bit cocky for a greenhorn pilot. You spew this as if you have some experience!" Sure that is fair. I don't have a ton of experience making decisions as an airplane mechanic. And I don't have as much experience as most do flying planes either. Well...real ones at least. I do have eighteen hundred hours of simulation training, most in naval carrier operations with naval pilots and airbosses. Have built many of my own cars, houses, buildings, CNC machines and have been fabricating for decades. But true...I currently only have a little over five hundred hours of mechanic work performed and logged as an apprentice...so not too much.

So why the long winded story? Well one...I lost the plane and it was heartbreaking. But mainly...so others can also learn from what I went through. I lost five hundred hours of time, thousands and thousands of dollars and as a result I lost most of the flying season this summer. I know many great pilots that don't know much if anything about the mechanical aspects of the planes they fly. I knew...literally knew that those axles were weak links. I felt that I would be fine...I already felt comfortable in tailwheels. From doing some high speed taxiing on the grass after we ferried it up...getting the engine warmed up to drain oil and so on...I could instantly tell that the gear was springy as heck, that it tracked to the undulation of the ground on the runway. The wings would dip and flex the already flexed at stance gear...and I could tell the camber change was wanting to alter how the plane was tracking. This simply put...adds more risk and opportunity for error. Far smaller margin of error than the Super Cub…and certainly smaller than the 170 I am redoing now...that has stronger gear legs. Immediately noticed how tame the 170 with the stronger gear handles. Immense difference.

What I learned was that these planes are mechanically simple, which is awesome. There is an amazing association right here that has a database of knowledge that can take someone like me and truly guide them through learning about, maintaining and upgrading the 170. So many of the discussions and debates I read here…and truly enjoy reading...have many good points. "Add the P-Ponk...well why would you need that? If it is gonna tear out it is gonna be far worse to the gearbox than without it. It may be catastrophic!." True...it may also be without it. But what if it widened the margin of error for when that rare occurrence does bite you? I would go with P-Ponk...every time. Don't need steel axles...just don't land it too hard. I suppose. In my case I would still have a plane...I can almost guarantee that. So all in all...I understand pure restoration and I understand purist thinking. There is a place for the stock pure planes as there are cars that are restored to stock and there are the same model of that car that is far more versatile and has modern upgrades. I mean wouldn't we be a bit off the beaten path if we truly believed that no knowledge was gained in regards to engineering beyond that which they had in 1948? I think it would be hard to challenge that.

T3 Tailwheel...why in the hell would anyone do that...is it needed? It's about the twisting forces not the up and down, so a leaf spring setup is just as good. Softens the bumps when taxiing...well go slower. It ruins the look of the plane! yeah yeah and yeah. It also lowers attrition from taxiing on the tailwheel assembly and anything else that feels less impact as a result of any and all operations that add load to said tailwheel. It is more complex...that's a con…not a pro for sure. I cannot seem to find another. All choices we make. If I spent a few more grand...I could have saved ten! An axle...the choice to not upgrade that axle at that time...knowing it had 800 tires, which were on it when purchased, and was gonna be flown by a pilot new to tailwheels...was the wrong choice. I learned that the hard way. It will influence any and all decisions I make in the future. Form always follows function...unless you are trying to win an award for best stock plane!!

On to my next mission...N4182V
In the end it made me think of N4182V, which is my new 1948 Ragwing, which is so very cool...and how I will do whatever it takes to widen the margin of error and aid in lowering attrition or to keep this plane flying long after I am gone. But I will be doing this one…solo!

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Last edited by RCoulter on Thu Oct 24, 2024 3:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
1948 C170 Ragwing (The Silver Cessna)
SN: 18515
voorheesh
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by voorheesh »

That’s quite a story. I used to work for the FAA and investigated aviation accidents including 2 ground loops in Cessna 170Bs. In one case the CFI/PIC had 13000 hours instruction given in tailwheel. He could not explain what happened except it was sudden. No gusts, no mechanical problems, it just happened. The other accident involved a highly experienced US Navy fighter pilot who was new to his 170 and tailwheels and thought he was in a crosswind when there was none. Then he attempted a go around after he already was off the runway. To his credit, this pilot was completely honest with us and went on to rebuild his airplane under supervision of a mechanic and to my knowledge flies it to this day. He is way up on my list despite his initial misfortune. As for the first 13000 hour instructor, I was ordered to give him a re-examination ride which I did. This pilot had forgotten more about tailwheel airplanes than I knew despite my many years of flying them. There was no doubt about his ability what so ever. He just had a bad day.

What I learned from these investigations was that loss of control can happen to anyone regardless of experience and we should all remember that. My theory regarding tailwheel loss of control is it usually occurs after a momentary lapse of attention or missing a warning cue. It just happens. It can only be avoided by never letting your guard down during takeoff, landing, and even some taxi operations. And even after all efforts, these are sometimes not enough. Some of my former colleagues notwithstanding, I never looked down or judged a pilot involved in an accident. I was always happy to meet one who survived. (Sadly, many did not)

This is obviously a tough loss for you but your story is very impressive. You should be proud of the work you accomplished on that plane and the lessons learned (steel axels vs comfortable seats for example). I totally agree with your observation of owners becoming involved especially under supervision of qualified mechanic. I hope you go on to get an A&P. Your approach to flying these tailwheel aircraft is also admirable in that you report some understanding of the dynamics other than just keeping the insurance companies happy with X number of takeoffs and landings or hours in type. I hope you have a good time in your new airplane and stay safe. Thanks for your report.
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RCoulter
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled

Post by RCoulter »

Thanks for the response. Could not agree more with you regarding judgement and focus. I know both of these guys so very well and have the utmost love and respect for both of them. Will be friends forever. Our creed when we purchased the plane was that the plane never would get between the friendship. My creed with the CFII is and will always be to be as tough on me as possible and hold back no punches. That still is the case. And I will be going back for advanced instruction with him for years to come. His knowledge of flying in the landing environment is still something I strive to achieve.

It was a culmination of a few things. I have always liked having a bit of wind over no wind or light variable winds…even more so in the Tailwheel. May sound crazy but it seems like I have something to lean on…so to say. With no wind there is a tendency to not be as active on the pedals. I am always doing little taps on the rudders until it’s stopped. That way in the event I do get a gust or something I need to react to…then my feet are already setup to quickly react. If I am limp on the pedals then I feel if I made a quick reaction I would have greater tendency to over compensate.

On this day it was a bit of both of those. A slight over reaction that narrowed the window of recovery for the acting CFII to react. And when I say this CFII is an amazing pilot….it is an understatement. He flies some of the most exquisite tailwheels produced to this day on a weekly basis. Is the test pilot for the manufacturer, trains pilots of new purchases and is constantly training Tailwheel pilots in his own operation.

But in the end…it was calm and a gust must have hit the plane and the pilots feet were a tad complacent…so when he initially reacted it was a bit much. The CFII noticed and immediately corrected for it…he was a fraction of second behind saving it. Had the axle not broke…it would have been saved. There was a skid mark that showed the moment he initiated the brakes. The plane at that point was not too off axis….and then the skid mark stops and the scraping began as the axle had broke.

So it was a perfect storm that became an event because of the split second lost in reaction and then the axle failure. The heartbreak that the CFII felt was certainly on full display to me. He was extremely upset and saddened by the loss of the plane. A true professional in every way. Granted he is also someone that I hold very dear to me as a friend and he knew how hard I had worked on the plane. I had just brought it down to his hangar a few days earlier and I had many plans to go fly with him both for continued instruction and…just as friends. The…I should have done this…or I could have done that game began in his mind, in regard to what he thought he could have done better.

I have witnessed countless accidents in NASCAR, of which I was deeply involved for over a decade, where amazingly talented drivers got bit by an aero bug, bad decision or slight complacency. Events that could have been avoided if their reaction was a tad quicker or more precise. A response that needs to be performed in 1/1000th of a second to be executed correctly. Do it in 1/500th of a second, which is still pretty fast…maybe faster than the common person would be able to react…and with luck that slight delay may have a positive outcome. But under a perfect storm of conditions that fraction of a second delay may cause an event that ends your race day and/or destroys the car. For a driver and team that are truly at the highest level of the sport and talent. Racing…like flying…is a very humbling profession.

Now if I had changed the axles that window would have been wider and the outcome also could have been different. We inspected the axles thoroughly and they were in great shape. They were not original as stated in the NTSB report that is for sure. They were original in that they were the stock part number. They were replaced a few times prior to our purchase and noted in the log books. But a decision I made…could have created a better outcome. I wasn’t wrong per se…but the decision did have impact on the outcome.

After buying the 48 Ragwing, which was maintained and cared for by a renowned A&P I/A and his closest friend who owns a pretty well know shop in defiance for Cessnas….I immediately noticed his manner of aligning and shimming the wheels was different than what I normally see. Pretty high camber setting with the shims used. Unfortunately he is no longer alive for me to learn this from. But he was an alignment engineer for a major automotive company for many years and many people used to bring their 170’s to him to do the alignment as they said his plane tracked better than any they had flown.

He was a true crew chief so to speak. Making mechanical changes that would provide a greater chance for a positive outcome for the plane, the pilot and passengers under undesirable conditions. When the bleep hits the fan so to speak.

So yes…my point is that decisions that have nothing to do with piloting an aircraft….decisions that are not wrong if they are not acted on…are decisions that could change the outcome for the better under that perfect storm of events. I learned my lesson for sure! My A&P I/A flies like an A&P I/A. Meaning he flies in a manner that he knows will reduce his own need for maintenance. I have much to learn but will not stop trying!
Last edited by RCoulter on Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
1948 C170 Ragwing (The Silver Cessna)
SN: 18515
wingnut
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by wingnut »

Well written, and I enjoyed reading this. Sorry you lost the plane however, your attitude toward the event is admirable and hopefully contagious to the reader(s).
Good luck with the rag wing. I'll second voorheesh suggestion to get your A&P......not because it could have changed the outcome of this event, but because you obviously have the aptitude and we need more A&Ps that enjoy working on "little" planes.
Del Lehmann
Mena, Arkansas
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RCoulter
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by RCoulter »

voorheesh wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 4:40 am You should be proud of the work you accomplished on that plane and the lessons learned (steel axels vs comfortable seats for example).
Pure Fact! So darned true it hurts the soul! I wanted to get it dialed up and fancy to represent as it was gonna be on display at Airventure. The one upgrade that couldn’t be seen…was more important than that which could! Learned a humbling lesson there.

Besides getting it to Airventure….my intent with the interior was so that my young kids and those that I planned to fly with that may be a tad on the nervous side…wouldn’t get in…see cracks, tears and non mechanically important items that could make them feel unsafe. I felt that way on my discovery flight. I saw the taped plastic and cracks and said…I hope your club takes care of the engine and airframe better than you care for its clothes…and I also informed him the brake pads were getting rather thin.

I had getthereitis from a mechanical standpoint. Both to get to Airventure and for the aforementioned reason. Things took longer than expected and originally I thought I would be where we were in say…the end of April. But as we finished the annual the end of June, I knew I had to get my insurance requirements and TIME was running out…so I sat on some squawks that were not airworthy items of concern. More upgrade items I wanted to do. 100% mechanic getthereitis! If there is a Mechanical Decision Making book MDM….this would be a great example of getthereitis for a mechanic.
Last edited by RCoulter on Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
1948 C170 Ragwing (The Silver Cessna)
SN: 18515
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RCoulter
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by RCoulter »

I should also say that the most important factor to widen the margin of error is to constantly build my skillset as a pilot. To build the best sense memory skillset I can through challenging myself and to continue learning under new conditions and circumstances.

And…make my race car (airplane) as prepared for the track and everything that has nothing to do with the track or the driver…that could end my race or destroy the car! May be my own crew chief…but I am still gonna beat that pilots ass if it’s pilot error! For every performance anomaly I will be blaming myself on both sides for the duration.
1948 C170 Ragwing (The Silver Cessna)
SN: 18515
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by sfarringer »

It is too bad that the axles had been replaced several times, but always with the same hollow aluminum axles. They have been a known weak point for quite some number of years.

Your "new" Ragwing has been a traveling machine. It has been to Alaska a couple times, and I have flown beside it to many places including the San Juan islands, Newfoundland, and the Turks and Caicos. Glad it went to a good home.
Ragwing S/N 18073
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RCoulter
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by RCoulter »

sfarringer wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 4:53 pm It is too bad that the axles had been replaced several times, but always with the same hollow aluminum axles. They have been a known weak point for quite some number of years.

Your "new" Ragwing has been a traveling machine. It has been to Alaska a couple times, and I have flown beside it to many places including the San Juan islands, Newfoundland, and the Turks and Caicos. Glad it went to a good home.
Yeah. I was still learning as I worked on the last one. Really am still learning but have a tad more knowledge of the ins and outs and such.

I have heard the stories of many of the trips and it’s awe inspiring. I have huge shoes to fill with 82V. I’m still processing its life story and the story of its previous owners. They are an inspiration to me in many ways
1948 C170 Ragwing (The Silver Cessna)
SN: 18515
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RCoulter
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by RCoulter »

PistonPete wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:44 pm Hey, RCoulter! Thanks for sharing your journey with N9793A; it's clear you put a lot of heart and effort into that plane. The lessons you've learned are invaluable, especially when it comes to making decisions on upgrades and modifications. It's impressive how much you've delved into the mechanical aspects of the aircraft, and your attention to detail is admirable. Sometimes, it's those small upgrades that can make a big difference in safety and performance. Your experience shows the importance of understanding the rationale behind upgrades and being proactive in making the necessary changes. Have you started applying these lessons to N4182V? How's the process going so far?

Thanks for the kind words. It was fun working on the last one and I’m having a good time with 82V. I’m gonna fly this one for a while after the annual is done in a week or so. Then I will be adding ADSB in/out, four place intercom….well most likely just a newer audio panel, and then a few other interior things. I already have rewired the audio jacks and PTT buttons. As well as few other wiring items that needed better strain relief and/or replaced. But really this plane was so well cared for…I’m gonna enjoy it and over time add my own touches to it.

PPonk is going on right away as well as the BAS pull handles I had for the last one that are setting in the hangar. They were something I wanted to do before Airventure…but ran out of time.

This bird just needs to fly for a bit…so I’ll cowboy around up north with no ADSB and hit some fun grass strips.
1948 C170 Ragwing (The Silver Cessna)
SN: 18515
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by GAHorn »

I’m posting this (perhaps prematurely, as I’ve yet to read all this thread yet, but want to Get This Out): Registration Numbers DO NOT IDENTIFY AIRFRAMES.

N9793A ..may very well re-appear…on a 170…or a Boeing Business Jet.

SERIAL NUMBERS are more important when identifying airframes.

(I once had a potential buyer threaten me with a lawsuit claiming I’d misrepresented my Beech Baron when I offered it for sale. He claimed I’d completely hidden and altered the logbooks to hide a crash that it had suffered.
I had to point out that the accident report on that N-number he was researching was applicable to a TWIN-CESSNA …. not a Beech Baron.)

Registration numbers CHANGE ALL THE TIME.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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RCoulter
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by RCoulter »

Hoping 93A’s data plate and tail number end up back on this 170…and not a different.airframe. Gonna keep my eye on the salvage as it could completely be rebuilt. To pay a shop to repair it would be above the hull value and void of any ROI. But to the person that can invest the time…it is still a viable rebuild.
1948 C170 Ragwing (The Silver Cessna)
SN: 18515
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Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by GAHorn »

We all have a friend (fellow member) who recently threw a conn-rod and ended up, upside-down in a corn field. Insurance will “total” the airframe and sell it to the highest salvage yard. Cursory investigation indicates it would take $60K — $80K to rebuild the airframe…. at which point a New Engine and Prop would also be required at owner’s expense (since insurance won’t pay for a failed engine.)

So, …(speculating the bottom-line)… Owner gets $45K (a WAG) for the wreckage… and doubles that to repair it after buying it back for salvage value …(speculating $15K…another WAG)…. so to get it back and into the air would cost “Triple” the $30K the owner actually receives for the wreck…. Bottom-Line = Owner spends $60K out of his own pocket to turn his airplane from a wreck to a pristine airplane.

$45K from ins
-!5K buy salvage
+60K airframe repair
+30K engine
+8K prop
————————————-
$68K out of owners’ pocket for a flying airplane (with no avionics upgrades)

This would imply that …IF…the owner had the airplane insured for $45K… he would be UNDER-insured by about $38K at the minimum.

Should he have his airplane repaired…?

Here’s what I think that I would do: I would ask myself the question: Would I buy that airplane Back …in freshly-restored condition..…And…if it had a new engine…for $68K…?? …. and with a down-payment already in my pocket of $30K…?
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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DaveF
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:44 am

Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by DaveF »

this bird could get squirrely fast.
This shouldn't be the case. Check the wheel alignment on your next 170. The previous owner of my airplane aligned the gear and the airplane rolls out straight. It's never failed to make me look like a better pilot than I really am.
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RCoulter
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:22 pm

Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!

Post by RCoulter »

DaveF wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 4:06 pm
this bird could get squirrely fast.
This shouldn't be the case. Check the wheel alignment on your next 170. The previous owner of my airplane aligned the gear and the airplane rolls out straight. It's never failed to make me look like a better pilot than I really am.

After seeing how 82V is setup even just on the camber side…I could see shimming 93A differently. Alignment is something I really want to dive into learning more about. Especially if one would shim and run different camber angles or degrees of toe based on tire size or a desired performance characteristic. Very interesting stuff.

When you gave 93A what it wanted I thought it became very predictable. All our landings were on asphalt…and I certainly felt as I was initially building some time, that it showed me my errors far faster and with greater intensity then the Super Cub I had most of my time in. Just not as forgiving to my imperfections. Understandably though as it is heavier, has spring gear…and..is not a Super Cub. Looking back there are so many decisions we could have made differently. Start him on the grass…wait and finish upgrades. Certainly walking away having learned a lot.
1948 C170 Ragwing (The Silver Cessna)
SN: 18515
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RCoulter
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:22 pm

Re: The final chapter of N9793A. What I learned after rebuilding and watching it get totaled!t

Post by RCoulter »

GAHorn wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 1:50 pm We all have a friend (fellow member) who recently threw a conn-rod and ended up, upside-down in a corn field. Insurance will “total” the airframe and sell it to the highest salvage yard. Cursory investigation indicates it would take $60K — $80K to rebuild the airframe…. at which point a New Engine and Prop would also be required at owner’s expense (since insurance won’t pay for a failed engine.)

So, …(speculating the bottom-line)… Owner gets $45K (a WAG) for the wreckage… and doubles that to repair it after buying it back for salvage value …(speculating $15K…another WAG)…. so to get it back and into the air would cost “Triple” the $30K the owner actually receives for the wreck…. Bottom-Line = Owner spends $60K out of his own pocket to turn his airplane from a wreck to a pristine airplane.

$45K from ins
-!5K buy salvage
+60K airframe repair
+30K engine
+8K prop
————————————-
$68K out of owners’ pocket for a flying airplane (with no avionics upgrades)

This would imply that …IF…the owner had the airplane insured for $45K… he would be UNDER-insured by about $38K at the minimum.

Should he have his airplane repaired…?

Here’s what I think that I would do: I would ask myself the question: Would I buy that airplane Back …in freshly-restored condition..…And…if it had a new engine…for $68K…?? …. and with a down-payment already in my pocket of $30K…?
I totally agree and wrestle with this still. I’m on the board of a flying club and I look at the expenses nowadays for any work, as well as the lead times it takes. And our planes fly a lot and require lots of maintenance as a result. This is the deciding factor for me…as I can justify it financially. I could get the plane back and be about where I’ll be with the new one…if all goes as estimated. But…having restored things in the past…I think the estimated will be far lower than the final actuals on the financial side. But probably still doable and worthwhile. And this is me not doing the work and I get a plane back. Probably still dropping more cash and probably 1.5-2 years before I see it…provided a shop will take on the project.

Now if I chose to do the work..,I can make it look like I walked away with a lottery win. But…if I factor in the time and probably year and a half or more it would take…time alone would put me back in the same financial scenario.

Looking at the time and cost it takes to get quality work done on engines and airframes…the lack of A&P’s and the rising hourly rates, as well as knowing I would be on a waiting list for a project this size…if I wanted this plane back I bet it would be two years either way.

But if I had a plane to fly and could buy the salvage, as well as a good boned donor. I could, over time, bring it back to life. I would still lose money hand over foot if I count labor. But if I don’t I could exchange my labor for equity and a beautiful plane. interesting for sure.
1948 C170 Ragwing (The Silver Cessna)
SN: 18515
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