how many still prop to start?

[iowa]

i do this from time to time.
i know it can be dangerous,
but i have done it succesfully
for many years.
i even prop'ed my C 180!
does anyone else do this?
dave

[GAHorn]

I was flying a politician friend around in his D-55 Baron (Cont. IO-520's) a few years back. One of our pax was a Texas Ranger who truly thought I'd lost my mind when I told him I was going to "prop" it. (The right starter had failed and we were in Laredo late at night and wanted to get home to Austin.)
Those engines didn't have impulse couplings like Cessnas do. They had Bendix "shower of sparks" system that had no retard (other than me) except when the starter was engergized. After 10 or 15 minutes of failed attempts and bloody fingers from pullin' that McCauley thru with every other pull a back-running/backfire...I was about to give up. Disgustedly and out of breath I gave it one last pull,.... and it ROARED to life! I really had already given up and had not actualy stepped away from it on that last pull.
'Bout scared the life outta me.

I watched a Marine hand-prop a C-47 one day back in 1967 on the ramp at Nacogdoches, TX. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. He pulled it thru several times, had the pilot prime it, then slowly pulled it to exactly where he wanted it with one blade pointed down at the 6 o'clock position... and then he backed up about 20 feet and took a hard run at it, grabbing the blade with his shoulder like a football linebacker as he went under the engine and on by and .... it fired once....almost stopped...fired again...almost stopped .... and then roared to life in a cloud of blue smoke! They flew it away.

[iowa]

gahorn
you might be interested in this thread
from the jeep forums called
'how to start an airplane with a jeep'

http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 73&start=0

i found it fascinating.
BTW i flew the DC-3 that was down in Georgia for awhile.
i'll have to see if i can dig up the pic.
i can't believe one could prop such a big plane!!

dave

[170C]

I don't have a lot of experience propping (sp )--maybe 50 times total and I don't care to add to that experience. I do it when it is needed. I don't generally volunteer to prop someone else's plane, but will do so if required. That prop, whether metal, wood or composite is a very efficient meat cleaver and it doesn't care whose meat it cuts I realize that those folks with planes that have no electrical system have no choice other than to either prop or not to go and a lot of folks do it routinely with no problem. I find convention geared planes to be much easier than others due to the angle and height of the props. I have done all of my planes at one time or another and recall on one 170 convention my starter contact (deal on top of the starter ) failed on my first fuel stop and I thus had to prop it about 6-7 times more before getting back home. It's one of those things that the more you do it the easier it seems to get, but that prop is always ready to deal you misery. My worse experience was proping/propping a friends' Tri Pacer, which I did on numerous occasions. First that Lyc. starter arrangement is super at having the starter remain engaged in the flywheel. Sometimes turning the prop backward solved that problem, sometimes it didn't. On one occasion I had gone through the routine of "brakes set, mags off", turned to prop to the correct attitude even though the attitude of the nose was too low for my liking. On about the 5th or 6th try as "my" battery was getting weak, I called for "mags off" and after hearing the response, "mags off", I started moving the prop to its best position and "PRESTO" the damn thing fired and started, barely missing me! I learned my lesson to double check our communication each time after that. Also found out that a 3rd person was helpful to pull down on the tail to get the nose up high. Give me a good battery & starter every time (I had an acquaintence once that used a rope tied to his vehicle to "prop" his twin engined Aero Commander when the starter failed or the battery wouldn't do the job )

[iowa]

ah...
danger,
there's the rub!
which is why many do not choose to prop.
but...i was curious how many do this anyway!!
probably not that many on this 170 forum as we have starters.
dave

[Roesbery]

Got in the habit of proping from behind the blade when flying a no electric J3 on floats. I do it on the 170 when needed the same way. Put the left foot on the ground against the right tire and grab the handle forward of the windshield or open the door window and hold the door with the left hand, then use the TIPS of the fingers of the gloved right hand or otherwise protected fingers to pull the prop through. DO NOT wrap your fingers around the prop unless you want to be called stubby. The 180 hp lycoming can kick back pretty good just from compression if you don't get past top center. A lot less chance of becoming mince meat especially for us older guys.

[tshort]

Any tips on the 6 cyl C-145?

Stu (who has lots of experience propping, does so sometimes on his O-320 RV6 and Cessna 140) and I tried in Feb of this year when the battery was dead with no success. The engine usually fires on 1-2 blades when using the starter ... we just figured we weren't strong enough ...

Thomas

[mit]

I had to hand prop a couple times this summer, on floats. The battery was getting weak. Went and bought another one. I sometimes hand prop in the winter, just to save what juice there is in the battery. I have a 13 amp Gen. If Iwas rich I would have a 180hp with an alternator.

[iowa]

i guess the next question
would be if anyone of you
have ever been injured
doing this?
dave

[futr_alaskaflyer]

i guess the next question
would be if anyone of you
have ever been injured
doing this?
dave

They likely have a hard time typing

[GAHorn]

Any tips on the 6 cyl C-145?

Stu (who has lots of experience propping, does so sometimes on his O-320 RV6 and Cessna 140) and I tried in Feb of this year when the battery was dead with no success. The engine usually fires on 1-2 blades when using the starter ... we just figured we weren't strong enough ...

Thomas

I'll bet Feb in Indiana was fairly cool weather? This can be a challenge on a C-145/O-300.

It's important to assure that the mags are correctly timed and the impulse couplings are in good conditon to provide a properly retarded spark during start.

It's also important to have the tail tied down and someone sitting in the cockpit, properly briefed, with the brakes ON and their hand on the key to switch the mags back off if necessary. It's also a good idea to have a FIRE EXTINGUISHER handy, especially when propping an engine, because a backfire that starts a fire in the carb/induction/cowling can be difficult to extinguish since there is no ability to continue cranking to suck such a fire up into the carb. Your assistant's briefing should include information on how to turn the fuel valve OFF in case of fire. (Personally, if ever propping an engine without an assistant, I turn the fuel valve on before preflight, then off before propping. That way it will have only just enough fuel in the system to run until I can get to the cockpit.)

In temperate conditions (40-100 degrees F) it's usually just necessary to turn the fuel ON and let it wait while you preflight the aircraft. Then when ready to prop it, give the throttle 2 full strokes from idle to full-throttle, and return the throttle to 1/8" open. PRIOR to turning the Mags on, pull the prop thru 3 or 4 blades as if you were propping it for start. THEN, with the ignition/mags ON,... pull the prop thru quickly as you step backwards away from the nose. It should start first or second try like this.

In COLD weather (below 40) Prior to stroking the throttle, give it 3 or 4 shots of prime. Then re-load the primer (pull it out and be ready to push it in forcefully), stroke the throttle as above, and complete the process previously mentioned in the first paragraph. Note: Have the occupant be prepared to note if the engine attempts to die subsequent to initial start, and at that time to push it in forcefully. This should keep it going. Keep the engine running with subsequent strokes of the throttle (which sprays fuel into the induction during the forward stroke.) The idea is to keep it running in the 800-1200 range until it will idle there naturally. In extremely cold climates it may take a few strokes of throttle and/or primer to keep it going. Watch for oil pressure to indicate within 30 seconds.*

Be certain to LOCK the primer after the engine is running smoothly, and before takeoff.

*If the oil pressure is slow to come up in warm weather, it'll be worse in cold weather. The fix is: Remove the oil pressure sense line from the right side of the engine and the pressure gauge. Blow it clear with compressed air. Place the lower/engine end of the line in a cup of kerosene/jet fuel and using a small diameter clear pvc hose (available at hardware and big-box stores) slipped over the upper end, create a vacuum at the upper end of the line. (Don't get any in your mouth...that's why a clear hose is good, as you can see when the kerosene arrives at the upper end of the line.) CLAMP the pvc hose to prevent the kero from draining back into the cup. Re-fit the lower fitting to the engine oil pressure fitting. Remove the clear hose and refit the upper end to the pressure gauge.
Subsequent oil pressure indications should be speedy...or you might have a gauge full of old, congealed oil. Replace such a gauge or send it for repair.

Hope this helps.

[kloz]

Any tips on the 6 cyl C-145?

Stu (who has lots of experience propping, does so sometimes on his O-320 RV6 and Cessna 140) and I tried in Feb of this year when the battery was dead with no success. The engine usually fires on 1-2 blades when using the starter ... we just figured we weren't strong enough ...

Thomas

I'm sure everyone knows better. You don't have to be strong to prop one and get it started if it is ready to start. That is why people get hurt. (just going to move the prop to hook the tow bar etc)

[iowa]

i guess the moral of the story is like
what is true for anything;
everything is safe,
(in the famous works of bob hoover)
if one knows their's and their planes limitations,
and never exceed both!!
dave

[Paul-WI]

This thread reminded me of when we went to pick up 58D. The battery was dead and the starter cable was not adjusted properly, so Ron (my CFI) tried to prop start it. It would run a few seconds and die. Primed again, start right up and die. We played this game for about 20 minutes trying to figure out why we could not keep it running g. I ran to town to get a set up jumpers figuring maybe jump starting might help. When I got back, Ron asked if I had the mixture set on rich - DOH . Mixture rich, mags on, master switch on. and away it went. Check list, Check list, Check list!!!! I just told Ron that he needed to loose some weight and this was actually a new exercise program I developed just for him!

Paul
N3458D

[Kyle Wolfe]

Years ago my Dad and his partner had a "48 C170. It had just come back from an annual. My dad's partner had the keys in his pocket. As was customary, they always pulled the prop through several compression cylces to make sure they could hear the valves closing and had compression.

Not sure how he had last killed the engine, but when simply turning the prop through, it fired and started running and caught his leg. He was badly hurt and to this day has a limp (I need to hear the specifics from him - will do that next time I see him).

Moral of the story - always check the mag switch when shutting down (last year I had one that was bad - would keep running when I went counterclockwise past OFF), use the mixture cutoff to kill the engine and ALWAYS treat every engine as though it has a hot mag.