I'm thinking of "upgrading" my ragwing by removing the vacuum system--2 venturi's,horizon & directional gyro's,suction gauge,hoses & regulator. I never look at that stuff,plus it'll clean up the panel as well as the slipstream. ***
Eric
vacuum system
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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N3243A
- Posts: 282
- Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2002 12:51 am
Eric,
Your not going to leave the instruments installed in case you inadvertantly get into IMC conditions? The horizon gyro might save your bacon.
But, if you have your mind made up are you gonna sell as a package or part the system out? I might be interested in your regulator if it's the one I need.
Bruce
Your not going to leave the instruments installed in case you inadvertantly get into IMC conditions? The horizon gyro might save your bacon.
But, if you have your mind made up are you gonna sell as a package or part the system out? I might be interested in your regulator if it's the one I need.
Bruce
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
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wa4jr
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:44 am
I wouldn't remove them either. I've flown several flights VFR and had to climb or descend through "holes" in the cloud deck that are too small for the 170 to transistion through with either an extreme deck angle or spiral. This means I start in the hole and end up in the clouds...a maneuver not possible without instruments. I've only had my 170B for a half year, but have already had the horizon and DG help me out in tight spots. Another thought. Using just the wet compass to fly headings as assigned by ATC may get you in trouble. I know I can't fly a wet compass well enough to maneuver within acceptable ATC limits...I'd have to declare "no gyro", opening up another can of worms. Of course it IS your airplane, but I do think removing the instruments will decrease the utility and safety of the machine, as well as reduce it's value when and if you ever decide to sell. If you do remove them, pack along a string and weight or a half bottle of water to get you out of those reduced visibilty situations that claim so many unprepared VFR flyers.
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
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funseventy
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 11:46 pm
Eric,
Don't listen to those guys. I removed those plus a lot of other things from my 170 and it makes a notable difference. I flew my 170B on Christmas eve with an air research data boom on it and I did a full stall series with various flap settings. I did two flights that were exactly the same except for the addition of 270 lbs on the second flight and the difference was amazing. It added almost 5 mph to the stall speed clean and 2.5 mph at 40 degrees. Weight is not a friendly thing on our 170's and if you plan on flying it in the mountains on our beautiful summer days then you are making the right decision. Some people might not know how North Idaho has a great summer. Every day from July 1 until september 30 is blue skies. I plane on making trips 3 weeks in advance and I know that I'll go.
I plan on showing my findings from the data flight in the Pilot's Lounge.
Keep an eye out.
Kelly
Don't listen to those guys. I removed those plus a lot of other things from my 170 and it makes a notable difference. I flew my 170B on Christmas eve with an air research data boom on it and I did a full stall series with various flap settings. I did two flights that were exactly the same except for the addition of 270 lbs on the second flight and the difference was amazing. It added almost 5 mph to the stall speed clean and 2.5 mph at 40 degrees. Weight is not a friendly thing on our 170's and if you plan on flying it in the mountains on our beautiful summer days then you are making the right decision. Some people might not know how North Idaho has a great summer. Every day from July 1 until september 30 is blue skies. I plane on making trips 3 weeks in advance and I know that I'll go.
I plan on showing my findings from the data flight in the Pilot's Lounge.
Keep an eye out.
Kelly
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Why don't alla ya just up & kick me?
Here's my defense--
1) I'm not an IFR pilot. I'm a VFR pilot. V standing for Visual.
2) Under the hood is one thing (peripheral vision,etc),in the clouds for real is another. Even the guys with IFR tickets seem to auger in pretty regularly trying to do the visual flight into IMC thing.
3) Why has everyone here been saying ya can't fly IFR with venturi's? But now all of a sudden they're OK?
4) A common figure I've heard is that statistically the average VFR pilot is into a graveyard spiral within 2 minutes of entering the clouds.
5) What's wrong with the old needle/ball/airspeed method? Some practice under the hood with that oughta get me tuned up for emergencies.
6) RE: whiskey compass,I kindas like a vertical card compass.Plus,my GPS has all kinds of compass options.
7) Re: sucker holes,either climbing or descending use of: see number 1.
Seems like Kelly is about the only one who might agree with me.
Eric
Here's my defense--
1) I'm not an IFR pilot. I'm a VFR pilot. V standing for Visual.
2) Under the hood is one thing (peripheral vision,etc),in the clouds for real is another. Even the guys with IFR tickets seem to auger in pretty regularly trying to do the visual flight into IMC thing.
3) Why has everyone here been saying ya can't fly IFR with venturi's? But now all of a sudden they're OK?
4) A common figure I've heard is that statistically the average VFR pilot is into a graveyard spiral within 2 minutes of entering the clouds.
5) What's wrong with the old needle/ball/airspeed method? Some practice under the hood with that oughta get me tuned up for emergencies.
6) RE: whiskey compass,I kindas like a vertical card compass.Plus,my GPS has all kinds of compass options.
7) Re: sucker holes,either climbing or descending use of: see number 1.
Seems like Kelly is about the only one who might agree with me.
Eric
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N170BP
- Posts: 552
- Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:24 pm
When everything goes to hell in a hand-basket, I'd want
to look at the turn coordinator 1st (needle & ball).
Even with the best Venturis, gyro performance could be
said to be marginal (previous threads referenced....).
There are a ton of airplanes out there that left the factory
with a turn coordinator as the only gyro instrument. When
the **** hits the fan, *thats* the instrument to pay homage
to and pray to.... I want to say I don't exactly put my trust
in a WW-II vintage AN attitude gyro and/or directional gyro
with perhaps 2+ inches of vacuum flowing through them.
If I was worried about VFR flight into IMC in a VFR-equipped
C-170, I'd figure out a way to feed a turn coordinator (electric?)
and bleep-can the other gyros. Just my 2 cents worth (I'm
instrument rated, but not instrument current).
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
to look at the turn coordinator 1st (needle & ball).
Even with the best Venturis, gyro performance could be
said to be marginal (previous threads referenced....).
There are a ton of airplanes out there that left the factory
with a turn coordinator as the only gyro instrument. When
the **** hits the fan, *thats* the instrument to pay homage
to and pray to.... I want to say I don't exactly put my trust
in a WW-II vintage AN attitude gyro and/or directional gyro
with perhaps 2+ inches of vacuum flowing through them.
If I was worried about VFR flight into IMC in a VFR-equipped
C-170, I'd figure out a way to feed a turn coordinator (electric?)
and bleep-can the other gyros. Just my 2 cents worth (I'm
instrument rated, but not instrument current).
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
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N1478D
- Posts: 1045
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:32 pm
VFR Airplane Flying
Flying Non-IFR Airplane/Pilot:
If the pilot or plane is not IFR qualified, one life saving item on a cross country flight might be money in your pocket to buy an airline ticket, which would help a person to fight get-there-itis.
If the pilot or plane is not IFR qualified, one life saving item on a cross country flight might be money in your pocket to buy an airline ticket, which would help a person to fight get-there-itis.
Last edited by N1478D on Sat Dec 28, 2002 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
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wa4jr
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:44 am
Some good points and some I don't understand. A vertical card compass has the same turning errors as a wet compass, but not quite so pronounced. Maneuvering to ATC assigned heading using a GPS generated compass display might actually work. I'd try it first backed up with the properly set DG before it gets pulled out to see if the accuracy is there to make the TRACON person happy. I suppose if you always plan properly and leave yourself an escape route then flying without a DG and Horizon is OK. Turn and bank with airspeed are good if you don't let the attitude get really out of whack. Recovering from an unusual attitude using just airspeed and a T&B indicator is not something I would want to try. Those early airmail pilots didn't have a very good safety record in the soup! Who said you can't fly IFR with venturies? While Eric is pulling the IFR capability out of his airplane, I'm going in the opposite direction with full IFR avionics. I'm having the ship certified IFR with the venturies, I just won't launch into a low overcast or visibilities under a mile and I'll stay away from the ice. Electric gyros would be the ultimate, but they are way too expensive right now. I picked up my 170, in part, because I am giving up on airline flying for my family. To maintain the utility of the aircraft, I need to be able to fly IFR...so this drives me in a direction different that the one Eric has chosen.
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Oh,and Dick,the crack about selling my 170 & getting an ultralight kinda burned my ***. I suppose someone COULD have made a similar comment to you- "why don't you just buy a 180?"- when you talked about your engine upgrade.
Or tell the guy putting on VG's and/or a STOL cuff-"why don't you just buy a Supercub?".
We all have a different concept of the ideal 170,depending on our finances,typical flying mission,even favorite color. I'll try not to p--- on yours if you return the favor.
Eric
Or tell the guy putting on VG's and/or a STOL cuff-"why don't you just buy a Supercub?".
We all have a different concept of the ideal 170,depending on our finances,typical flying mission,even favorite color. I'll try not to p--- on yours if you return the favor.
Eric
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
Eric
I don't know if your flying style will have to change, probably not. Especially for local Puget Sound flying with the mostly stable overcast and good visibility. On a cross country trip it would be different. First you won't know the weather conditions or the terrain and you'll have to work at navigating as well as trying to figure out what the area weather is likely to do. If I were to do that no Gyro thing I'd consider much higher minimums and much closer airports and alternate landing sites behind me on a cross country trip. Being IFR rated (but not current) I might take a little more weather risk knowing I'll be able to at least control the airplane if I get into the soup. Otherwise with no IFR capability I'd be back to NEVER between layers or over the top (not that I like to do either of these but sometimes they make sense) and always being under the overcast. With your lack of some IFR training the gauges will still have some value if you get caught as long as you get some practice once in a while. My brother got caught near Mountain Home AFB right after he got his Private years ago. Because the airplane was equipped and he had a couple of hours hood time for the Private he was able to keep control of the plane in the clouds and get vectored to a vfr field. Of course he sent the controller a bottle for his help. So do you want a Champ for local play or do you want a basic 170 that gives you a little more security if you want to take it out of Puget Sound?
I don't know if your flying style will have to change, probably not. Especially for local Puget Sound flying with the mostly stable overcast and good visibility. On a cross country trip it would be different. First you won't know the weather conditions or the terrain and you'll have to work at navigating as well as trying to figure out what the area weather is likely to do. If I were to do that no Gyro thing I'd consider much higher minimums and much closer airports and alternate landing sites behind me on a cross country trip. Being IFR rated (but not current) I might take a little more weather risk knowing I'll be able to at least control the airplane if I get into the soup. Otherwise with no IFR capability I'd be back to NEVER between layers or over the top (not that I like to do either of these but sometimes they make sense) and always being under the overcast. With your lack of some IFR training the gauges will still have some value if you get caught as long as you get some practice once in a while. My brother got caught near Mountain Home AFB right after he got his Private years ago. Because the airplane was equipped and he had a couple of hours hood time for the Private he was able to keep control of the plane in the clouds and get vectored to a vfr field. Of course he sent the controller a bottle for his help. So do you want a Champ for local play or do you want a basic 170 that gives you a little more security if you want to take it out of Puget Sound?
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Actually,Dave, I want both! Or I should say all three--a Cub of some sort for low & slow and "off-road",a 180 for everyday,and a DC-3 for the longer trips & to haul my friends along! But given my finances,the 170 is the best compromise. And I love it,it's a great airplane.
I will probably leave the gyro's in place. But I do still think now & then of removing them. Like you pointed out,without gyro's I should consider higher minimums,routes closer to airports, and alternate landing sites.
BUT,even with gyro's I should think this way. Not "I'll be OK if I accidently go in the clouds,I've got gyro's". False confidence has bit a lot of pilots in the ***. Not having the gyro's wouild be a constant reminder to stay visual.
Most dangerous words in aviation:
1) hey,watch this!
2) don't worry--it's just the gauge.
3) I think I have enough gas to make it.
4) IFR current? Nah,but it's just like riding a bicycle--some things ya never forget.
There's a lot of others but you get my drift.
Eric
I will probably leave the gyro's in place. But I do still think now & then of removing them. Like you pointed out,without gyro's I should consider higher minimums,routes closer to airports, and alternate landing sites.
BUT,even with gyro's I should think this way. Not "I'll be OK if I accidently go in the clouds,I've got gyro's". False confidence has bit a lot of pilots in the ***. Not having the gyro's wouild be a constant reminder to stay visual.
Most dangerous words in aviation:
1) hey,watch this!
2) don't worry--it's just the gauge.
3) I think I have enough gas to make it.
4) IFR current? Nah,but it's just like riding a bicycle--some things ya never forget.
There's a lot of others but you get my drift.
Eric
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N170BP
- Posts: 552
- Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:24 pm
Ha ha... A friend of mine (retired airline captain with a bazillion
hours) actually said that recently to his passenger/pilot friend....
"Watch this...."
They ended up hitting a parked Cherokee with the airplane (minimal
damage). Long, long story, but at least we can all laugh about it now.
Mental note / rule to self: *NEVER EVER* say "Watch this...." while
anywhere near an aircraft.
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
hours) actually said that recently to his passenger/pilot friend....
"Watch this...."
They ended up hitting a parked Cherokee with the airplane (minimal
damage). Long, long story, but at least we can all laugh about it now.
Mental note / rule to self: *NEVER EVER* say "Watch this...." while
anywhere near an aircraft.
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
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Joe Dickey
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:07 pm
Just one more 2 cents
Just one more opinion, and we all know what they are like.......
Make sure you have a WORKING DG (electric is great)(most won't tumble at strange attitudes) a VSI/Altimeter and that stupid little ball and needle (got them anyway...right?) AND at least a couple hours of unsusal attitiude recovery training with a GOOD CFII or current IFR rated pilot each year!!!! A turn coordinator also works, but the DG is useful to have anyway (when is the last time you did a 2 min turn??)
Most pilots can fly straight and level and do a "get outta there" 180 with these intruments (don't trust an AH) IF they practice unusual attitude recovery.....
All it takes is IMC, a little distraction (Awww damn...where did that come from?), you get confused (thought I was heading 270 a minute ago), trim the nose up just a bit to take the pressure off the stick..... suddenly, damn... the DG must be broke too 'cause it is spinning around....better give it a little more trim up cause I'm losing altitude and the airspeed is up too.... and pretty quick...you're dead!!
The weight and cost of these WORKING instruments and the training is really cheap compared to funeral(s) and the loss of another 170 from the rolls!!! PLEASE practice this stuff like you would landings.....chances of dying from a bad landing is not real great, but VFR into IMC is most likely fatal if your'e NOT prepared!!!
Make sure you have a WORKING DG (electric is great)(most won't tumble at strange attitudes) a VSI/Altimeter and that stupid little ball and needle (got them anyway...right?) AND at least a couple hours of unsusal attitiude recovery training with a GOOD CFII or current IFR rated pilot each year!!!! A turn coordinator also works, but the DG is useful to have anyway (when is the last time you did a 2 min turn??)
Most pilots can fly straight and level and do a "get outta there" 180 with these intruments (don't trust an AH) IF they practice unusual attitude recovery.....
All it takes is IMC, a little distraction (Awww damn...where did that come from?), you get confused (thought I was heading 270 a minute ago), trim the nose up just a bit to take the pressure off the stick..... suddenly, damn... the DG must be broke too 'cause it is spinning around....better give it a little more trim up cause I'm losing altitude and the airspeed is up too.... and pretty quick...you're dead!!
The weight and cost of these WORKING instruments and the training is really cheap compared to funeral(s) and the loss of another 170 from the rolls!!! PLEASE practice this stuff like you would landings.....chances of dying from a bad landing is not real great, but VFR into IMC is most likely fatal if your'e NOT prepared!!!
Joe Dickey
C 170
N1948A
C 170
N1948A
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