Summer's here....

[clayton991]

I have a 170A with a strong engine. I have flown my whole life in the mountain states. I know density altitude. I bought this 170 last October in an optimistic mood. I thought it would perform a little better than it does in the heat. I fly out of a 4500msl airport. At 80 degrees F, at 1800 pounds, the climb performance peters out about 7000 feet (a density altitude of about 9,000). Short of selling it, or upgrading the engine, what would you 170 gurus suggest? What is the highest HP engine STC'd for the 170A? How valuable are STOL kits for this problem? Aileron gap seals?
I don't need much, but I need something. Otherwise, its a gorgeous example of a 170 going on the market.
Thanks in advance.

[HA]

you're leaning for peak RPM in the climb, right? that's what I have to do in that situation

[clayton991]

Absolutely....and I haven't worked too hard at this yet, but I would like some input on what mods work best.
Thanks

[johneeb]

I have a 170A with a strong engine. I have flown my whole life in the mountain states. I know density altitude. I bought this 170 last October in an optimistic mood. I thought it would perform a little better than it does in the heat. I fly out of a 4500msl airport. At 80 degrees F, at 1800 pounds, the climb performance peters out about 7000 feet (a density altitude of about 9,000). Short of selling it, or upgrading the engine, what would you 170 gurus suggest? What is the highest HP engine STC'd for the 170A? How valuable are STOL kits for this problem? Aileron gap seals?
I don't need much, but I need something. Otherwise, its a gorgeous example of a 170 going on the market.
Thanks in advance.

Clayton,
Here is an expensive way to solve the problem.

http://www.cessna170.org/phpBB2/viewtop ... bo+charged

[clayton991]

Thanks.
The XP mod would do the trick, no doubt. Since my original post, I have gathered a lot of info. I don't think I will opt for an engine upgrade. Higher HP aircraft have come down in price due to fuel prices.

I have searched this site pretty thoroughly regarding gap seals and other airframe improvements and still haven't been able to ascertain whether these types of modifications would give a 170A another 1000' to 2000' of altitude.

[theduckhunter]

If you need MUCH better performance it is hard to beat the C-180 route. Get off short, climb at 1200fpm from sea level at gross (my real world numbers). I flight plan for 130 knots at 23 squared burning 11.65 gph (this is my average over the past 250 hours of operation). According to the book numbers at gross weight and 10,000 msl on a standard day I can climb at 980 fpm (although I have a factory new engine and I find this a little aggressive). The long and short of it is for a little more dollars the C-180 does a lot more.

This is of course an age old argument and some would say just buy a Pilatus Porter.

The C-170 is still the most beautiful and goes as the biggest and fastest possible with the smallest amount of investment and operating costs for what you get. I'll have another 170 one day when my future son is ready to transition to from the future Aeronca Champ to something bigger. I wouldn't trade my 180 for anything............except a 195...........which I'll be looking for down at Sun-n-Fun! Looking forward to seeing others there!

[clayton991]

Yup. No doubt a 180 would do it, but I hate to give up on this beautiful aircraft without a fight, or at least an arm wrestle....
I'm thinking an O-360 180hp upgrade (with exchange on my C-145), Hartzell CS prop, STC kit, installed would run in the vicinity of 30 to 33K?
Anyone agree/disagree?
Thanks.

[cessna170bdriver]

Yup. No doubt a 180 would do it, but I hate to give up on this beautiful aircraft without a fight, or at least an arm wrestle....
I'm thinking an O-360 180hp upgrade (with exchange on my C-145), Hartzell CS prop, STC kit, installed would run in the vicinity of 30 to 33K?
Anyone agree/disagree?
Thanks.

I've only been out out west for a little over 10 years, but I've managed to get used to the takeoff and climb performance out of Tehachapi (5-7000 ft DA). There have been and continue to be times when I wish the throttle would open a little wider, so I have considered engine upgrades. With my math, I couldn't see getting it done for much less than $40K. I was looking into the Cont. IO-360 conversion to retain more of the stock look of the airplane, but I don't think the 180 Lyc conversion would be much cheaper if at all, since that engine is very popular for experimentals and they've got the prices driven up.

If you aren't as attached to your particular airplane as I am to mine (25 years this August), a better way to upgrade might be to sell the 145hp 170 then buy one with the engine you want. That way you stand a chance of coming in around a $25-30K upgrade. Let someone else take the hit.

Quite a few years ago I talked to a friend with a 145 hp '52 170B who wanted a little more speed so he installed a cruise prop. He got the expected decrease in climb performance, so he installed a full STOL kit (Horton, I think) with the result of getting the climb performance back without a loss on the cruise end. Something to consider.

Miles

[N3243A]

Yup. No doubt a 180 would do it, but I hate to give up on this beautiful aircraft without a fight, or at least an arm wrestle....
I'm thinking an O-360 180hp upgrade (with exchange on my C-145), Hartzell CS prop, STC kit, installed would run in the vicinity of 30 to 33K?
Anyone agree/disagree?
Thanks.

If you could do it for $33K I would do it. Where are your getting the engine? I figured more like $45K. The STC is close to $10K alone. A mid time decent O-360 will be at least $16K and a new one $25K (outright). Add a new prop and governor for about $8K. Now throw in about 100 hours (Maybe more) of A&P IA time at somewhere between $5K and $8K. The real key to the conversion is having an inside line on a good Lyc 360 at a good price. Since most of us have no core we have to buy one outright and ouch are they expensive. No one I have found wants to swap a C-145 core for a good Lyc O-360 so you end up parting out your runout engine for chump change (if you are at TBO).

What prop are you running? Many of us in Alaska run the 80 inch prop with 42-44 pitch for performance. Slows your cruise speed but allows the engine to spin up and make more horsepower for takoff and climb. Are you doing any off airport operations?

Bruce '53 170B

[Jr.CubBuilder]

Yup. No doubt a 180 would do it, but I hate to give up on this beautiful aircraft without a fight, or at least an arm wrestle....
I'm thinking an O-360 180hp upgrade (with exchange on my C-145), Hartzell CS prop, STC kit, installed would run in the vicinity of 30 to 33K?
Anyone agree/disagree?
Thanks.

If you could do it for $33K I would do it. Where are your getting the engine? I figured more like $45K. The STC is close to $10K alone. A mid time decent O-360 will be at least $16K and a new one $25K (outright). Add a new prop and governor for about $8K. Now throw in about 100 hours (Maybe more) of A&P IA time at somewhere between $5K and $8K. The real key to the conversion is having an inside line on a good Lyc 360 at a good price. Since most of us have no core we have to buy one outright and ouch are they expensive. No one I have found wants to swap a C-145 core for a good Lyc O-360 so you end up parting out your runout engine for chump change (if you are at TBO).

What prop are you running? Many of us in Alaska run the 80 inch prop with 42-44 pitch for performance. Slows your cruise speed but allows the engine to spin up and make more horsepower for takoff and climb. Are you doing any off airport operations?

Bruce '53 170B

What Bruce said, but there's a couple other things to consider. If your old C145 is strong and low time you can sell it and part out whatever else you can, subtract that from the cost. Having done this conversion myself I would only recommend doing it if you really plan on keeping the plane. Depending on how much you have invested in the 170 and how much you get for your old engine you can potentially end up having the conversion done with brand new equipment forward of the firewall for a total cost including your old plane of about what you will pay for a C180 with a mid-high time motor and prop. That was one of the factors I considered before doing mine, I didn't need the load hauling or speed of a C180/185, I just wanted a new motor with a little more snort than the C145 would ever put out.

[N3243A]

Jr.CubBuilder,
Approx. how many hours did it take for your installation or were you able to do most of the work yourself? How would you rate the quality and completeness of the Del Air STC, parts kit and installation instructions?

Bruce

[Jr.CubBuilder]

Harry's estimate of 100hrs is on the optomistic side of realistic. There's a bunch of variables involved one of which is how efficient the people doing the wrenching are. My mechanic just charged me a flat rate for 100hrs to get it done, the work was great but time wise it got second class status to other more high dollar jobs. I probably put a good 16hrs of my own time on it as well, I did all the rivet drilling on the cowl and some other grunt work.

If the mechanic is efficient, all the pieces are present ready to go, and you focus on just the conversion of the motor I think 100hrs is a realistic number.

The STC that I got from DelAir was very complete, the only thing that was missing from mine were two out of eight bolts for the spinner backplate and it's possible the mechanic misplaced them. It came with six or eight sheets of blueprints, instructions, and packing lists. There are some reinforcing strips for the nose bowl to fairing juncture that have to be fabricated on sight, and I think there were a couple other bits. There was one part that wasn't right though. The bracket filter box that is supplied, when mated to the cowling lower in the same location as the stock air filter simply will not work. That had to be cut and modified at a welding shop to make the adapter mate up with the short junction pipe coming from the airbox. That was wrong, my mechanic talked to Harry about it, but ultimately just had it modified to fit.

My other grumps were fairly minor I think.
Harry couldn't supply me with a part number or other help with the mounting brackets for my alternator (I didn't buy the motor from him) eventually I used the bracket part numbers from an O320 powered C172. We needed a different oil filter mount, and starter than those supplied with the motor.

Quality wise I think everything was as advertised, brand new. One thing I would change though if I could is the spinner, it came with a brushed finish that doesn't look that great and polishing it is a lot of work. It would be worth a few bucks to me just to have started with a polished one.

I'll add one last thing to after thinking about it. For the most part none of the work was anything I couldn't have done myself if I had hanger space to work on it, and I consider myself an average wrench. The one exception to that was the cowl work, I wouldn't want to tackle that myself unless I could have a couple practice runs and unfortunately you've only got one shot.

[clayton991]

Thank you fellow members---
I realize this is an old tired subject...and I appreciate your responses. 40K+ is not worth it to me...plus, this 170A I have is such a pristine example of the breed, I think it would be best to just leave it alone. I'm going to hang in there with it for now....leave on trips a little earlier (cooler) in the day, etc....i.e., manage the situation. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. There are plenty of bigger money pits I can dive into....ha!
Thanks again.

[Robert Eilers]

Another factor to consider is your prop - cruise/climb? There has been a thread on the Jet Flow prop modification - which essentially modifies the 8 bolt McCauley to perform like the 172 prop - which provides greater RPM at takeoff power. Might be a less expensive way to produce a few more horse power on takeoff and climb. The type of prop you have can make a big difference.