Dear fellow members:
My C145 2-2 in my "48 is no longer! The other day while flying I heard a tapping noise and could feel a metal-on-metal tapping through the control yolk and through the rudder pedals. Upon landing, I opened the cowling and discovered 1) more oil everywhere than should be there, 2) a stud holding the #4 cylinder shorn off, and 3) the exhaust pipe coming off the #4 cylinder cracked. All these were pretty good indications that something had gone wrong with the #4 cylinder. When the mechanic started to tear into the engine to figure out the problem, a 3 inch by 1 inch chunk of the case, right next to the sheard stud, came off. Opinion of all who looked at it is that this case, and engine, is pretty much history.
The A&I says that all of my accessories are in very good shape and his recommendation was to try to find another C145 out there, buy it, put my accessories on it, re-install the engine and fly out of the airport where I made my precautionary landing and where my airplane is currently "stuck."
My questions are:
1. The C145 2-2 on my plane has an 8 bolt prop flange and a mechanical fuel pump. Will all C145's out there have the 8 bolt prop flange and will all have the internal mechanism needed to drive my fuel pump, or, will I need to find one out of another 1948 so I'll be able to install my fuel pump?
2. Are C145's hard to find? What are some recommendations on where/how to find one?
3. I've already been offered $25k for my plane where it sits by the FBO owner on the field. I know everyone says this, but, after a 13 year restoration, this airframe is in almost perfect shape with modern avionics, most of the airframe mods such as P-Ponk, solid axles, bass pull handles, strobes, Maul tailwheel, rosen visors, new interior, 4-place builtin intercom, etc. etc. This plane won "peoples choice" a a Cessna 170 gathering a few years back. Should I just take the $25k and "move on" or should I put in the effort, and gamble, of finding another engine?
Any advice offered will be much appreciated. This plane meant a lot to me, but, these engines are all going to be pretty old and I don't want to throw good money at this thing if the risk of getting a bad engine is high.
Thanks,
Curt - N4288V
Need Advice and New Engine!
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Curt
Short and sweet. The guy offered you $25K because he'll make out. Get another engine and keep on marching.
All C-145s and O-300 can accept your fuel pump. You will just have to take the cover of the side of the case and bolt your pump on. The pump is driven directly from a lobe on the cam for this purpose. There is nothing that needs to be put into the engine that is not already there.
You can use any C-145, 0-300-A or B with out any additional approvals. These engines have the 8 bolt crank if they are stock so you can use your current prop.
You can also install an 0-300-C or D but you will need the STC which is now owned by the TIC170A and is very reasonably priced. You will also have to replace your eight bolt prop with a six bolt prop for either of these two engine models. And if your running a later model spinner you need to replace that as well. If your running the skull cap it will work with any engine/prop combination.
If you use a 0-300-D it will/should also have an angle starter that is different from yours. So you will need an angle starter and modify your airplane electrically to use the starter as it doesn't use the pull start cable like the other models.
Your baffling, exhaust, mags, generator and starter will work on all the models except the starter as I mentioned on the 0-300-D.
Short and sweet. The guy offered you $25K because he'll make out. Get another engine and keep on marching.
All C-145s and O-300 can accept your fuel pump. You will just have to take the cover of the side of the case and bolt your pump on. The pump is driven directly from a lobe on the cam for this purpose. There is nothing that needs to be put into the engine that is not already there.
You can use any C-145, 0-300-A or B with out any additional approvals. These engines have the 8 bolt crank if they are stock so you can use your current prop.
You can also install an 0-300-C or D but you will need the STC which is now owned by the TIC170A and is very reasonably priced. You will also have to replace your eight bolt prop with a six bolt prop for either of these two engine models. And if your running a later model spinner you need to replace that as well. If your running the skull cap it will work with any engine/prop combination.
If you use a 0-300-D it will/should also have an angle starter that is different from yours. So you will need an angle starter and modify your airplane electrically to use the starter as it doesn't use the pull start cable like the other models.
Your baffling, exhaust, mags, generator and starter will work on all the models except the starter as I mentioned on the 0-300-D.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Best News I've Heard All Day
Bruce:
As you can imagine, this has been a pretty bad day, and your input has made me feel alot better. These things always seem to happen when we least need it. The only good news is that I got down on the ground before the engine stopped, and I'm thankful for that.
Will all of my accessories fit the O300 A & B? I've converted to the slick mags, the more modern electrical system, Bartone exhaust, and recently re-built carb and new mufflers that I would like to use.
Thanks,
Curt
As you can imagine, this has been a pretty bad day, and your input has made me feel alot better. These things always seem to happen when we least need it. The only good news is that I got down on the ground before the engine stopped, and I'm thankful for that.
Will all of my accessories fit the O300 A & B? I've converted to the slick mags, the more modern electrical system, Bartone exhaust, and recently re-built carb and new mufflers that I would like to use.
Thanks,
Curt
The type certificate does not provide for approval of the "B" engine. (Another basis of approval will be necessary, I believe.)
And, Curt, you may find it necessary to strip off cooling baffles and install your cooling baffles/box if the engine you purchase is from a 53 or later B model airplane.
Depending on costs, I like the idea of buying Mile's case and building up your engine with all your parts. You'd likely only have to purchase one additional cylinder. I think you might come out better financially, because your failed engine's internal parts will otherwise have very little relative value (for you to recoup towards the outright purchase of a completely different engine.... Just thinking out loud.)
And, Curt, you may find it necessary to strip off cooling baffles and install your cooling baffles/box if the engine you purchase is from a 53 or later B model airplane.
Depending on costs, I like the idea of buying Mile's case and building up your engine with all your parts. You'd likely only have to purchase one additional cylinder. I think you might come out better financially, because your failed engine's internal parts will otherwise have very little relative value (for you to recoup towards the outright purchase of a completely different engine.... Just thinking out loud.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10327
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Curt once again George is correct about the 0-300-B model engine needing an approval. I slipped up here not realizing the '48 didn't allow the C-145-2H. Let me expand on this for a moment.
First a C-145-2 is a 0-300-A and a C-145-2H is a 0-300-B if you compare every single part of each engine in the parts manual. But there is no direct verbiage from TCM that says they are exactly the same. There is verbiage that says they are similar in the Overhaul Manual but that doesn't hold up in todays world.
On a '48 170 the type certificate allows a C-145-2 and as an optional engine a 0-300-A so there is no question these can be used.
If you had an A or B model the C-145-2H was added but the identical 0-300-B was not which is an oversight I believe but none the less it's not there. There are plenty of 170s with 0300-B model engines installed.
I have not seen the paperwork for the Associations STC yet but I've been lead to believe it covers every C-145 and 0-300 model as well as the associated propeller on every 170.
These engines are available and given a little time I'm confident you'll have several to choose from. But if you should find any other engine than a C-145-2 or 0-300-A you'll want to make sure of the paper work before purchase. While it is not a road I'd travel if I didn't have to I'd be very confident asking my FSDO for a field approval of any of these engines on your plane. But again I think the Association STC does just that.
As for George's suggestion of kit bashing an engine using your good engine stuff and a different case. This is certainly an option but I must caution you. You didn't mention how many hours where on your bad engine.
If it's not relatively fresh for the extra additional cost you might as well rebuild your engine using another case. For example are you going to use your used bearings? Who will determine they are serviceable? How about that crank. Looks good but is it serviceable? And the list goes on. Before going with this option you need to have a serious discussion with your A&P about who is going to sign this work off.
This isn't going to sound right or the safest practice but unfortunately it's true in todays world. If you buy a used engine that is deemed airworthy as it was running OK at removal it could be ready to blow but ignorance is bliss and the A&P IA will sign it off.
Or you could build up an engine fro visually inspected parts that would probably run 1000 hours but no one will sign of the liability of saying so. Once you open it or in your case combine engine parts there is a heightened sense that the parts should be measured and checked out and you just can't do that correctly in a hanger somewhere.
Curt bottom line it's not the end of the world and I wouldn't sell the plane you've worked so long and hard on. Miles and I, as well as many others have been where you are now. It will work out.
First a C-145-2 is a 0-300-A and a C-145-2H is a 0-300-B if you compare every single part of each engine in the parts manual. But there is no direct verbiage from TCM that says they are exactly the same. There is verbiage that says they are similar in the Overhaul Manual but that doesn't hold up in todays world.
On a '48 170 the type certificate allows a C-145-2 and as an optional engine a 0-300-A so there is no question these can be used.
If you had an A or B model the C-145-2H was added but the identical 0-300-B was not which is an oversight I believe but none the less it's not there. There are plenty of 170s with 0300-B model engines installed.
I have not seen the paperwork for the Associations STC yet but I've been lead to believe it covers every C-145 and 0-300 model as well as the associated propeller on every 170.
These engines are available and given a little time I'm confident you'll have several to choose from. But if you should find any other engine than a C-145-2 or 0-300-A you'll want to make sure of the paper work before purchase. While it is not a road I'd travel if I didn't have to I'd be very confident asking my FSDO for a field approval of any of these engines on your plane. But again I think the Association STC does just that.
As for George's suggestion of kit bashing an engine using your good engine stuff and a different case. This is certainly an option but I must caution you. You didn't mention how many hours where on your bad engine.
If it's not relatively fresh for the extra additional cost you might as well rebuild your engine using another case. For example are you going to use your used bearings? Who will determine they are serviceable? How about that crank. Looks good but is it serviceable? And the list goes on. Before going with this option you need to have a serious discussion with your A&P about who is going to sign this work off.
This isn't going to sound right or the safest practice but unfortunately it's true in todays world. If you buy a used engine that is deemed airworthy as it was running OK at removal it could be ready to blow but ignorance is bliss and the A&P IA will sign it off.
Or you could build up an engine fro visually inspected parts that would probably run 1000 hours but no one will sign of the liability of saying so. Once you open it or in your case combine engine parts there is a heightened sense that the parts should be measured and checked out and you just can't do that correctly in a hanger somewhere.
Curt bottom line it's not the end of the world and I wouldn't sell the plane you've worked so long and hard on. Miles and I, as well as many others have been where you are now. It will work out.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
I don't know what "kit bashing" is, so I wouldn't have suggested that.
Regardless of the time of Curt's failed engine, It should be no worse than any other field overhaul. Never should bearings be re-used, in my opinion, anyway. And all rotatables should be inspected and recertified by those qualified to do so, before re-use.
In other words, if the failed engine had a good crank, then that can be determined without too much trouble, and it can be re-used (after the necessary inspection, re-grind, whatever....) and it's value is not lost. If it is a bad crank, then it has no value anyway, of course, and therefore no additional loss is incurred.
Buying someone else's part-life engine will be a gamble of some sort, and will have to be judged on an individual basis. (Nothing revealing being offered here in that case.) Puchasing a different case, especially one that can be purchased with a guarantee that it can be recertified...or better yet, already so, ...would allow Curt to recoup whatever value exists in his present engine.
The cautions I'd offer are: 1)- Field approvals are not always available in all regions any longer. Before purchasing any engine other than one that already has an approval basis for Curt's airplane, hoping for a field approval, is a big gamble these days. I would not think it would be costg effective to also purchase an engine that would require prop/spinner changeouts, unless a "steal" on a complete setup was luckily found, and the Assn's STC purchased for the approval basis. 2)- Relying upon "your A&P" opinion may introduce factors not otherwise germane to the problem. If he's not someone who has experience in rebuilding engines, partticularly these engines, then he may not offer advice of appropriate value in this circumstance. (He might likely not want to spend his time travelling to the site, working on some other A&P's field removing an engine on the dirt, transporting the parts home, ....then still having an unfamiliar engine rebuild before him..... then transporting the engine back to Podunk to re-install an engine away from the comfort of his own shop.) It might be better to see if the local A&P will remove and ship the engine to whomever Curt chooses to rebuild it, and to re-install the rebuilt engine upon completion. Only Curt can make that call, but it's worth consideration, I believe.
Divco and others also may have already recertified crankcases available for purchase, Curt. You might contact them to see what they might do for you. (You might even still find your damaged case still has value to them in the form of a "core",...after all....that's what they do.
Regardless of the time of Curt's failed engine, It should be no worse than any other field overhaul. Never should bearings be re-used, in my opinion, anyway. And all rotatables should be inspected and recertified by those qualified to do so, before re-use.
In other words, if the failed engine had a good crank, then that can be determined without too much trouble, and it can be re-used (after the necessary inspection, re-grind, whatever....) and it's value is not lost. If it is a bad crank, then it has no value anyway, of course, and therefore no additional loss is incurred.
Buying someone else's part-life engine will be a gamble of some sort, and will have to be judged on an individual basis. (Nothing revealing being offered here in that case.) Puchasing a different case, especially one that can be purchased with a guarantee that it can be recertified...or better yet, already so, ...would allow Curt to recoup whatever value exists in his present engine.
The cautions I'd offer are: 1)- Field approvals are not always available in all regions any longer. Before purchasing any engine other than one that already has an approval basis for Curt's airplane, hoping for a field approval, is a big gamble these days. I would not think it would be costg effective to also purchase an engine that would require prop/spinner changeouts, unless a "steal" on a complete setup was luckily found, and the Assn's STC purchased for the approval basis. 2)- Relying upon "your A&P" opinion may introduce factors not otherwise germane to the problem. If he's not someone who has experience in rebuilding engines, partticularly these engines, then he may not offer advice of appropriate value in this circumstance. (He might likely not want to spend his time travelling to the site, working on some other A&P's field removing an engine on the dirt, transporting the parts home, ....then still having an unfamiliar engine rebuild before him..... then transporting the engine back to Podunk to re-install an engine away from the comfort of his own shop.) It might be better to see if the local A&P will remove and ship the engine to whomever Curt chooses to rebuild it, and to re-install the rebuilt engine upon completion. Only Curt can make that call, but it's worth consideration, I believe.
Divco and others also may have already recertified crankcases available for purchase, Curt. You might contact them to see what they might do for you. (You might even still find your damaged case still has value to them in the form of a "core",...after all....that's what they do.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Curt,
I can't resist adding my .02 worth because I have been down this road. By all means keep your airplane if for no other reason you know what you've got. But, proceed with caution and keep your eyes open. First, you can pull the wings off and trailer it home. I did it with a Swift once. Smaller than the 170 but should be doable. Second, I bought a FWF off another swift with decent TSOH. The top end was junk because the cylinders had been reworked too many times instead of replacing them. Third, if you decide to convert to the O-300D the props are not as plentyfull as some think and the skull cap spinner won't fit (sorry Bruce). The bottom line is don't let anything, or anyone pressure you into a hasty decision. Haul it home if you have to but explore your options and thoroughly inspect any used engine. Good luck
Dave W
I can't resist adding my .02 worth because I have been down this road. By all means keep your airplane if for no other reason you know what you've got. But, proceed with caution and keep your eyes open. First, you can pull the wings off and trailer it home. I did it with a Swift once. Smaller than the 170 but should be doable. Second, I bought a FWF off another swift with decent TSOH. The top end was junk because the cylinders had been reworked too many times instead of replacing them. Third, if you decide to convert to the O-300D the props are not as plentyfull as some think and the skull cap spinner won't fit (sorry Bruce). The bottom line is don't let anything, or anyone pressure you into a hasty decision. Haul it home if you have to but explore your options and thoroughly inspect any used engine. Good luck
Dave W
Dave W
88 cyclo polisher
88 cyclo polisher
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10327
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
George,
Kit bashing in the modeling world (plastic models) is taking two (or more) kits and combining them to make one. It is a term i loosely associate with combining good parts from two engines to make one good one.
George what I was trying to point out is that it is not as simple as taking what look like good parts and combining them into one good engine. Someone needs to certify the parts. That might be a visual inspection by a A&P or the parts sent to some place like Divco who will perform inspections the A&P can't do in the field.
If your are going the Divco type route then you might as well rebuild the motor. If an A&P deems the parts airworthy then it is most likely not a rebuild. There is a big cost difference and of course the end product has a different value. One engine how ever may not perform any better that the other however there are a lot of people who feel the A&P inspected parts engine has little value and will question it airworthiness.
Dave it just occurred to me and perhaps you've already found out the skull cap won't fit the six bolt pattern because the pattern itself it smaller. Is this the case?
Kit bashing in the modeling world (plastic models) is taking two (or more) kits and combining them to make one. It is a term i loosely associate with combining good parts from two engines to make one good one.
George what I was trying to point out is that it is not as simple as taking what look like good parts and combining them into one good engine. Someone needs to certify the parts. That might be a visual inspection by a A&P or the parts sent to some place like Divco who will perform inspections the A&P can't do in the field.
If your are going the Divco type route then you might as well rebuild the motor. If an A&P deems the parts airworthy then it is most likely not a rebuild. There is a big cost difference and of course the end product has a different value. One engine how ever may not perform any better that the other however there are a lot of people who feel the A&P inspected parts engine has little value and will question it airworthiness.
Dave it just occurred to me and perhaps you've already found out the skull cap won't fit the six bolt pattern because the pattern itself it smaller. Is this the case?
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
It did not occur to me that my comments might be taken to imply simply taking a bunch of parts and putting them together for a different engine. I only would consider a rebuild or repair using airworthy parts,....airworthiness to be determined in the usual manner.N9149A wrote:...it is not as simple as taking what look like good parts and combining them into one good engine. Someone needs to certify the parts. ...
However whether or not it is decided to "rebuild" or "repair" the engine would likely depend upon the condition of the failed engine's inspected parts... and that would indicate the expense, or savings, to be realized, of course.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
BruceN9149A wrote:
I have not seen the paperwork for the Associations STC yet but I've been lead to believe it covers every C-145 and 0-300 model as well as the associated propeller on every 170.
.
I have a copy of the STC in my hand and all it covers is " Installation of Teledyne Continental O300D engine and McCauley 1C-172 EM or Sensenich M74DC propeller in accordance with Drawing Nos. RM-1, RM-2 and installation procedure RM-3, Dated June 6 1988, or later FAA approved revision." It covers all three versions of 170's , but only covers the installation of O300D engines in these models.
It covers the O-300-C/D engines and the associated props and spinners....installation into the 170/170A/170B. (and now 172 according to a rather loosely-worded sentence.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Yes, discussed at:
http://cessna170.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... ht=stc+ron
http://cessna170.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... ht=stc+ron
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Found and engine
All:
I know I've said this before, but, what a great organization this is because you guys always come through with so much helpful information. Even when people have different perspectives I value the input as many of these issues aren't that straight forward.
I paid $12k for a C145-2 today that was for sale by one of our members. As well as I'm capable of, I think I've done my due-dilligence. The gentleman owned the 170 and engine since 1981 and recently had a prop strike out in Colorado. The FAA insisted on a tear down and the tear down and bottom re-build was done by an FAA certified shop. The crank was replaced with one that has never been ground and did not require grinding and is within "new" spec and most of the other parts, bearings, rods, etc. are new. The invoice for the bottom end rebuild came to about $8k. The engine was then re-assembled and flown back to Michigan where the owner had already decided to upgrade to a Lyc 360. When they removed the C145 to put it up "for sale", the A&P who did the installation on the 360 suggested that the top should be overhauled on the C145 to make it more saleable. The cylinders put on are all first-run rebuilt with no welds or cracks and everything else is new...valves, pistons, rings,...
I've spent 4 hours on the phone today talking with the shop that did the bottom, the shop that did the top 20 hours later, and the owner, as well as some people who know these people, and as best I can tell I'm dealing with reputable people who know the history of this engine.
This engine should have me up and flying within the next two weeks.
I then intend to pull my broken engine apart and send many of the major parts out to see if they can be yellow tagged. If so, I may be able to get back 3 or 4 k to offset the 12k I just spent. Might be optimistic, I don't know.
My hope is, if I've made good decisions here, not only will I have what is in effect as close to a "new" airframe as one can have for a 50 year old airplane, but, also an engine with a really strong bottom end and a good top end that, God willing, will take me through my remaining years of flying.
I'll let you guys know what happens with the install and if I got what I hope I'm getting. Any ideas you have on how I can maximize what I can get for my old engine would be appreciated. Also, what parts from my old engine are worth keeping and not selling no matter what I can get for them. For example, I've often read that the oil pans are getting tough to come by. Should I not sell that?
Best regards,
Curt
I know I've said this before, but, what a great organization this is because you guys always come through with so much helpful information. Even when people have different perspectives I value the input as many of these issues aren't that straight forward.
I paid $12k for a C145-2 today that was for sale by one of our members. As well as I'm capable of, I think I've done my due-dilligence. The gentleman owned the 170 and engine since 1981 and recently had a prop strike out in Colorado. The FAA insisted on a tear down and the tear down and bottom re-build was done by an FAA certified shop. The crank was replaced with one that has never been ground and did not require grinding and is within "new" spec and most of the other parts, bearings, rods, etc. are new. The invoice for the bottom end rebuild came to about $8k. The engine was then re-assembled and flown back to Michigan where the owner had already decided to upgrade to a Lyc 360. When they removed the C145 to put it up "for sale", the A&P who did the installation on the 360 suggested that the top should be overhauled on the C145 to make it more saleable. The cylinders put on are all first-run rebuilt with no welds or cracks and everything else is new...valves, pistons, rings,...
I've spent 4 hours on the phone today talking with the shop that did the bottom, the shop that did the top 20 hours later, and the owner, as well as some people who know these people, and as best I can tell I'm dealing with reputable people who know the history of this engine.
This engine should have me up and flying within the next two weeks.
I then intend to pull my broken engine apart and send many of the major parts out to see if they can be yellow tagged. If so, I may be able to get back 3 or 4 k to offset the 12k I just spent. Might be optimistic, I don't know.
My hope is, if I've made good decisions here, not only will I have what is in effect as close to a "new" airframe as one can have for a 50 year old airplane, but, also an engine with a really strong bottom end and a good top end that, God willing, will take me through my remaining years of flying.
I'll let you guys know what happens with the install and if I got what I hope I'm getting. Any ideas you have on how I can maximize what I can get for my old engine would be appreciated. Also, what parts from my old engine are worth keeping and not selling no matter what I can get for them. For example, I've often read that the oil pans are getting tough to come by. Should I not sell that?
Best regards,
Curt