Almost Snake Bit

[Robert Eilers]

Well, after 450 hours in tailwheels and starting to feel pretty cocky, I very nearly ground looped my C170B today. I flew a Champ for a number of years and the C170 for the past two with never a threat of a ground loop. Today, while attempting a full stall, full flap landing in what I would consider a moderate crosswind I nearly lost it. Probably developed in a typicla fashion. Wheels just on the ground - maybe just a little to fast - maybe the tailwheel not quite fully planted - she started turning into the wind and although I had full aileron into the wind and full opposite rudder she was clearly heading for the sideline. Once I fully understood that I was actually experiencing an imminent ground loop, I psuhed full throttle and pulled her back off the ground - straigtened things out and landed again without incident. Got me thinking about what are some of the best methods for correcting for a developing ground loop.

[1SeventyZ]

That's scary. I am a really low time tailwheel pilot and in the danger zone given my total hours. So what do you think went wrong on the "1st" landing? Do you feel like you had enough rudder authority for the crosswind? Did you notice any drift just prior to touching down? There are so many vague zones in my experience with the 170 that i think about these things...often.

Congrats on salvaging it.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I can't comment of Robert's recent event but I can say like many other events complacency plays a factor.

We all get to comfortable with our situation and divert our attention to other matters which in my case could be simple day dreaming.

[voorheesh]

Good save. Which direction was xwind? If it is comming from left, full throttle can exacerbate the situation due to torque/Pfactor. If you feel you are losing directional control while landing with a left xwind, full power "could" result in a problem. If you feel you are losing control on takeoff with left xwind, probably should abort.

An understanding of "wind" is helpful. If you are dealing with a steady wind such as frontal conditions/strong surface pressure gradient, you know what you are up against and you can either deal with it or go to plan b. If the wind is caused by "local effects" such as surface heating/cooling/thermals, then you can easily not know what to expect until you are in the middle of it. Have you ever seen a drooping windsock in the middle of the field and a flag sticking straight out in the breeze at the approach end? Thats what I'm talking about. Buildings, terrain, Boeing 747s all can affect the actual wind at the point you wish to land or takeoff on. If there is dust or smoke you can see it, but otherwise you have to feel for it and like the previous message don't get complacent.

There is nothing wrong with landing a 170 3 pt in an xwind. Even if you wheel land, you are going to end up 3 pt (hopefully). With the tail down and the wing stalled, it will take power and time to get the energy back up to flying speed (like making a touch and go). and a lot can go wrong while that is happening. If directional control is actually lost ie. the aircraft is swerving off centerline and out of control, my advice is throttle closed, ride it out and you will walk away from it. Trying to add full power at this point could result in a serious accident. If the airplane is just acting frisky but still tracking fairly straight, adding power and getting back in the air is fine and many say is the best course of action.

Always be prepared for the unexpected from the atmosphere and know the effect of each control input will be on all 3 axis of flight when in proximity to terra firma. Sometimes horse sense is more valuable than horse power.

[dacker]

Before I had my gear aligned I had my share of excursions. I had a couple of excursions when my tailwheel chain got hung up on the shackle (no guard as required) causing the tailwheel to be completely cocked at touch down. Of all the tricky landings that I have experienced I have never had the opportunity to apply full power and take off again, first off I was usually in a full stall condition, secondly I was too busy dancing on the rudders and brakes while holding the yoke all the way back trying to get control. I am with Voorheesh, in most cases trying to poor on the coal to get airborne is just going to make your problems worse.

By the way, the gear alignment improved the handling of my 170 immensely and because I have flown mine for 400 hours with it trying to "bite me" I am usually wired pretty tight and ready for anything when I land!
David

[GAHorn]

All good words. But I have saved my bacon several times by "pouring on the coal"...which can also have a stabilizing effect.
I remember one time I let another pilot have the left seat in my airplane.

On take-off, things went very badly, and as we lifted off, at about 2 feet altitude we drifted left to a point directly over the runway edge-lights. As the wind was blasting between hangars and across the runway, and with the stall warning blaring as we struggled along in ground effect, he decided to abort the takeoff and pulled the power completely off. We were now directly over the runway edgelights, virtually stalling at about 2-4 feet of altitude, and rolling right with the right wingtip about 2 feet above the pavement.

In an unthinking reaction I yelled, "No!", and slammed the throttle forward and pulled up while rolling left aileron in. Fortunately the engine did not hesitate and we struggled along in ground effect above the lights until the airplane re-gained flying speed.

I'm pretty certain we'd have had an ugly repair job had we dropped down on those edge-lights/concrete. I believe the sudden power application stabilized the matter (acting as a gyroscope.)

Anyway... each situation is different, and "you gotta be there" to deal with it. Like we've all heard....it ain't over 'til it's tied down.

[Joe Moilanen]

When directional control is needed, I mean a ground-loop is impending, YES, repeat again....YES! Full power makes the rudder alive again and you're back in control with prop air.

WHEN IN DOUBT!... WHIP IT OUT!!!!

WHEN EVERYTHING LOOKS BAD, HIT THE THROTTLE!!!

LEAN BACK AND GAS IT!!!!DON"T NEED NO FENDERS!!!

[N1277D]

Probably the best conditions that might lead to a ground loop is a gusty wind moving left and right accross the nose on roll out or a quarterly crosswind downwind landing.

I got close to one once in Sun Valley, thought I was low on fuel and needed to land for gas to make it home. Was not sure exactly about the fuel level due to the turbulence, high power power climbs and the sloshing of the fuel gauges. Sun Valley was close enough but they have a noise ordance that prohibits landing a certain direction. So they had us landing with a slight quartering downwind crosswind in rough air. They 170 can handle those condtions well on grass but pavement is another matter. We were moving straight but there was not enough control input available to go straight down the runway, so off we were heading to the runway edge. Luckly we slowed down enough before the runway edge and then taxied slowly for fuel. Would you believe it only took 15 gallons.

After that we put in a fuel flow gauge, and did some checking about accidents in Sun Valley (SUN). Most of them were taildraggers that ground looped landing downwind to deal with the noise ordance. Even the editor of flying magazine ground looped his super cub there.

[bsdunek]

All good words. But I have saved my bacon several times by "pouring on the coal"...which can also have a stabilizing effect.

I, too, saved one by power application. When I first started to fly the 170 - gusty crosswind and I found myself about to take out the runway lights. Full power gave me some life and full rudder authority. Once I was back where I belonged, I cut the power and made a fair/poor landing, but in the center of the runway.

Like you say, each one must be evaluated, and only experience can help you make the right decision. I do believe, though, that the increase in rudder authority is important.

[n3833v]

I had an incident where high xwind using the brake on a blacktop runway saved my bacon. Too slow for rudder authority, and a gust caught the rudder and I had to squeal the brake and straightened right up Ok. My buddy wanted me to land elsewhere and the situation would have been the same but on grass with less braking ability.

John

[Dward]

A couple of years ago I was landing down hill at my home airport with a moderate left crosswind. I went between the runway lights on the left side of the runway with the left wing still down. The grass was about 18" high and I pulled a handfull out of the left outer aileron hinge gap . It turns out my controls had become completely disconnected. Yep, somewhere between my brain and my hands/feet was a total failure of control responce. When I stopped shaking I climbed out and #1 looked the plane over, no damage, #2 got on my knees and thanked God, and #3 changed my underwear .

[edbooth]

Hi All,
I read these posts from time to time, but hardly ever respond. However on the groundloop issue, I do have a couple comments. Having flown a 170 going on 37 years, I can tell you it is not hours and experience or even out of tolerance landing gear alignment that determines your chances for a groundloop experience. I believe complacency is the prime ingredient. I have ground looped twice, once on takeoff and once landing. Both times there were outside influences that were not exactly normal , however had I been paying more attention, I might have avoided the situation. In both occurances, no damage was done other than to my pride. These little excursions both happened several years and a couple thousand hours after owning the plane. Ya just have to stay on your toes and recognize or sense any small deviations and correct immediately and not assume its going to behave just like the last landing and/or take off. Aircraft loading also has a huge influence on the GL tendencies and behavior. I won't go into detail here on my GL's, but on the takeoff one, there were large puddles on the runway and the landing one ,crosswinds were 25 gusting to 30 kts. Mary can tell you about these.... and she still gets back in the airplane.

[GAHorn]

Ed...those are WISE AND CORRECT WORDS!
I had my Aeronca for a couple of years, and I had beaucoup taildragger time on the pipeline patrol.... but my first groundloop was when I'd become so confident that I'd flown so much taildragger time ...that it was never going to happen to me ...

So I decided to show a reluctant pilot buddy how easy taildraggers really were. On the first demonstated landing... It was slightly gusty from the right...the CG was aft (rear fuel tank full).... and I'll never forget my astonishment while sitting out in the grass off to the right of the runway with the engine barely clicking over facing back out towards final from which we'd come.... and my friend said to me (as he un-clicked his seatbelt and began to climb out of the plane, "yeah...sure...YOU'RE gonna teach ME how to fly taildraggers....!"

[170C]

I have to agree with those who have stated that its when we get comfortable with our taildraggers that she or it will hit the fan Both times that I have come the closest to doing a ground loop were times I either wasn't paying proper attention to things as I should have been or was overly tired and almost let it get around on me. About the time we think we might have the beast conquered, she will slap us beside the head just to let us know who is still the boss Unfortunately we taildragger pilots are probably like the retract pilots say, "There are those who have (landed gear up) and those who will."

[edbooth]

You know, Old pokey, yours started out as a nice safe airplane and someone turned it into a monster .