Avionics upgrade thoughts and ideas

Paul-WI · Post by **Paul-WI** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:59 pm

Well, looks like I might be able to upgrade/install some upgrades on 58D this fall and am tossing around a few ideas. I thought I would bounce them off of here. First thing I want is a transponder (none in the plane now). I also want to upgrade the radio as when the weather is cold it seems to not want to work ( below 10 degrees) So the thoughts/questions/opinions that I search are:

1. Nav/Com radio with a VOR (no VOR in the plane now)

2. Nav/Com with moving map gps (would love to afford a 430 but just not in the budget)

As a side note, I have no intentions of getting an IFR ticket so getting the plane IFR certified and updated is not important to me. I just want good radios and navigation system as well as a transponder so I can get into Class C and Class B airspace as well as the safety factor.

I realize that everyone's needs and wants are different. I'm just looking now and any input that can help me make an informed decision will help.

Thanks,

Paul

HA · Post by HA » Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:33 pm

Paul-

if you just want a standalone nav/comm with a VOR head then you can't go wrong with either a Garmin (old Apollo) SL30 - simple unit and easy to install for the shop, and small. Or a used (certified) King KX155A or similar, also good units.

then you can get any portable GPS unit you like, and upgrade it whenever you want the newest toys. and you aren't slaved to the panel-installed unit's map and features forever.

if you want one unit to do it all then really the Garmin 430 is the one for you. And I have heard that Bendix/King is coming out with a competitive unit sometime soon, maybe it will drive the price down on the 430 which is admittedly an older unit with a pretty weak moving map display (as far as topo etc details). You might look around for a used 430 that came out for a 530 upgrade, older non-WAAS units are around and that's fine for your stated purpose.

we install Garmin transponders in all our stuff, a GTX320 would be great for you and we have very few problems with them. get an altitude encoder installed at the same time, cheap and then you can legally fly above 10,000 ft again.

I'm not trying to sell you the stuff (kinda looks like I'm a Garmin fan after rereading the above) but we have a bunch of planes and that's what we are using, and what I have good experiences with. as George says, IMHO

dacker · Post by **dacker** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:37 pm

Paul, I would recommend going with an Icom or Garmin radio, Garmin GTXS327 transponder, and a Garmin 296-496 GPS (depending on your budget) with a panel dock. You can even get this as a package for $4750 with the GPSMap 396 (TAP). If you are looking for VFR only, this package will give you all the info and more that you need for less than the price of a 430 alone.
I am just waiting for a little extra cash to replace my old radio with the Garmin or Icom and an ICS. I already have the GTX327 and am very happy with it.
Something interesting though, I recently had my transponder check done and the guy that did it showed me how I had inadvertently left the "protective" plastic coating on the face. After he finished and I jumped in to fly home I noticed that I could barely read the LED face of the transponder. Then it hit me, I wear polarized prescription sunglasses, and depending on the angle of my head, the polarization cancels out the LED display. When I lean over to read my display I now have to tilt my head so that it is straight up and down to be able to read it. The "protective" plastic coating was diffusing the display before so that it didn't matter. The Icom displays supposedly don't have this problem.
David

170C · Post by **170C** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:35 pm

There certainly is a wealth of mfg's & models to choose from. No one item is going to be perfect, but some come close. Of course one's budget gets in the way of what we might like. I have an ICOM-A200 panel mount com radio in my plane that I have had for many years. It works very well (I continue to get good feedback from other planes on how well it sounds) and to date has not given me any trouble (hope saying this doesn't jinx it

). It is a small unit so it doesn't take up much panel space and by comparison, is low cost. A new one will cost you around $700-$750. You can save about $100 if you go with a non TSO'd model and it is the same unit and unless you are hauling for hire a TSO'd unit isn't required. ICOM has a new unit coming out that has more capability and a different screen color, but has not yet received the needed blessing and I was told it will retail for around $1,250. I just purchased a second one while at OSH to put in as a second com unit. As far as a VOR, I don't know about Alaska, but in the lower 48 I think they are a waste of time/money. With a decent GPS or Loran, you don't need them any more. Kinda like DME. Maybe if you are doing IFR you might need or want both, but I see VOR's eventually being phased out. GPS--most all portable or panel mounted ones will do about the same thing as the next one. Some are more user friendly than other I think. I have an old panel mount Magellan unit that can no longer be updated, but it works like a charm. I also have a Lowrance 2000C portable unit that has a great moving map (color). I don't know how to utilize all of the capability of the unit, but I sure like it. Garmin makes a lot of good units, but you pay a lot for the Garmin name and I don't feel their units are any better than many others out there. Good luck with your endeavor.

Paul-WI · Post by **Paul-WI** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:53 pm

Thanks for the input guys. I should have mentioned that I have and use the Airmap 2000C (which I love) and a Loran (which I still have not figured out how to use)

Paul

jrenwick · Post by **jrenwick** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:56 am

One of the nicer surprises for me when I installed a Garmin 430 in my 170 was that it talks to my GPSMAP 496 through the power cord. As soon as I activate a flight plan (or Direct-to) on the 430, it displays on the 496 as well. The 496 then acts as a really nice complement to the 430, as if it were an expanded, updated moving map display with a whole bunch of nifty features that you will probably never see in an IFR GPS like the 430.

Now, I know you're not looking for a 430, but my point is that if you want a moving map and a VFR-only panel-mount GPS, it's worth asking if some of the VFR models have this kind of compatibility. Also, both Garmin and Icom COM radios have the ability to upload radio frequencies from a GPS unit. (I don't know if the 496 can feed them, though.)

So my advice is to explore the possibilities for compatibility between various portable GPS units and panel-mount VFR GPS and NAV/COM boxes to see if there are interesting ways to leverage a relatively inexpensive and easily replaceable portable GPS. An avionics shop might be able to help with this -- it takes some digging into installation and maintenance manuals that you might not have access to.

If you do this, and you find something you like, please report back to the group!

Best Regards,

John

Post by **GAHorn** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:09 am

http://www.public-action.com/911/transpon/

You don't say what your cold-wx problem is with your present radio...but I thought I'd let you know... I had a transmit problem in cold wx that was finally traced ...not to my radio...but to my PS Engineering INTERCOM!
At first they swore their intercom fails to a "safe" mode, but they were wrong, and aftet I'd spent money/shipping my com radio back to the factory (Narco 810+) the factory told me they couldn't find anything wrong with it (I didn't believe them...but they were right!).... it was indeed the PS Engineering intercom!
Narco at least issued a new warranty because they'd serviced the unit. PS Engineering charged me $40 (plus frt) to fix a failure they swore could not happen.

pdb · Post by **pdb** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:42 am

Paul:

I have had an Icom ICOM-A200 for nearly a decade and it has been flawless....its just a great radio. As for the other stuff, I am just an old fashioned, strictly VFR sort of guy, but have been able to get all over Alaska and made periodic trips to Oshkosh, the Grand canyon, etc, with just and old, and now very obsolete Garmin 90. It still works just fine, I just can no longer update the database, which is a pity.

I suppose that guys who routinely fly in the hazy, 3,000 ceiling, smoggy/hazy midwest/east 3m viz might find the moving map display comforting but my 90 still tells me where I am, which way I need to go, when I will get there, how fast, and which direction to turn if I have an emergency. I do have to figure out if I am going to run into Mt. McKinley all by myself. Which part of the big picture am I missing?

Sometimes I think the new units contribute negatively to information overload and/or divert the pilot's attention from the canopy and instruments where it should be for us VFR Mark I eyeball types.

I have often reflected on a story a Robin Olds told about being in a bad dogfight over NVN when all sorts of warning systems and radios started bleeping and blaring, telling him the bad guys where trying to lock on and shoot him ..which he had already keenly figured out. He was trying to pay attention to whomever was manoerving on his rear and dodging SAMS when he decided to turn most of the radios off so he could focus on the immediate problems trying to kill him and not be distracted or subjected to information overload. Folks aren't shooting missiles at us but in some airspace, there are lots of guys flying who never take their eyes off the G1000 and believe apc guys are infallible. Its a big sky out there but not that big.

If you truly have no IFR ambitions, the Icom and a Garmin GPSMAP 96 will get you anywhere you want to go reliably and economically. Just spend the money for a good radio installation, ext GPS antenna, and yoke mount with ext power supply installation.

Pete

Geez... I must be getting old and crotchity.

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:33 pm

If you're going to fly in thr IFR system, you'll need a VOR. If you're strictly VFR, why have one? If it is installed, it is required to work. Just another unused item to be maintained. Any GPS has all the VORs in it and, in addition, will give you the distance without a DME. As a matter of fact, the GPS is considerly more accurate than a VOR and the distance supplied is not slant range as is a DME.

Robert Eilers · Post by **Robert Eilers** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:44 pm

I agree with most of the responses - you don't have to spend a great deal of money to provide yourself with good solid VFR nav information. I flew all over the country in my champ with a battery powered handheld and a battery powered Garmin 92.

I now fly a C170B with a Garmin 430, Garmin Transponder and King Nav/Com, Garmin intercom. The Garmin 96 with a single Nav/Com, King or otherwise, and a Transponder is a solid VFR panel package. I find, even with the 430, that it is still convenient to select a VOR adajacent to my course and cross reference for location. The GPS is generally more complicated when all you want to know is where you are along your course. I personally find it easier to specifically locate myself on a sectional chart using a VOR radial and the GPS as primary course guidance.

Post by **GAHorn** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:10 pm

I still consider the Garmin 196 to be the most bang for the buck in a GPS unit. All the nav functions, portable (in case you have to hike out), runs on ships pwr or common AA batteries (rechargeables if you like), has all the airport info, nav aid info (like radial/distance from a VOR, NDB, or anything else of interest), towers, obstacles, safe enroute altitudes, and approaches are in database in case of IFR emergency, and it gives marine and highway info for the boat and car or foot (including which exits have gas/food/hotel/etc.) Database uploads via internet are $35. And in a pinch, it'll give you a back-up instrument panel.
A good com and a good txdr and a Garmin 196 is all you'll ever likely need besides your sectional (and with a 196 you can get by without that if you don't get caught.)

3958v · Post by **3958v** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:24 am

I know everyone loves the Garmin stuff but if your looking for a vfr unit to give you the most bang for your dollar you ought to at least check out the Anywhere Map units $1400 gets you all the features of a 496. The more I fly with mine the more I like it. It gives you terain, frequencies, TFR's fuel prices, hotel prices, taxi charts, simulated ILS weather maps and street maps. You also get the benifits of a hand held computer. You update once a month on your home computer so there is no real need to buy new charts every six months. If push came to shove I believe one could fly in some pretty bad conditions with just that unit and an attitude indicator. But I sure hope I never have to. I use the cheap little VAL 760 that came in the plane 13 years ago and have never upgraded as it has always worked fine. Use an old KX145 to monitor 121.5 Bill K

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:11 pm

George, which PS Engineering intercom do you have? I just purchased a PA 6000MC audio panel at OSH and am waiting to have it installed. Would be interesting to know if you had that unit. I now have an older PS 1000 intercom and separate marker beacon mounted below the panel that I will replace with the new one. Gary

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:00 pm

Mine is the PS 1000. All the PS Engineering intercoms (to my knowledge) have an internal relay that fails to the "safe" mode by design. The design doesn't always fail as designed.
It was that miniature relay that failed in cold weather. After about 20 minutes of warming up, it would operate properly, thereby defeating troubleshooting.
My frustration came from a customer-service call to the PS Engineering folks who were absolutely adamant that the cold would not adversely affect their unit and that the ONLY THING IT COULD BE is the RADIO!
Narco wasn't convinced but said they'd take a look. I removed the radio, FedExed/INsured it and a week later it came back haven been frozen and baked alternately by them all week with no failure created. (total cost to me was over $200 wasted)
I ignored the PS Engineering's customer service person and sent their unit back to them anyway and they had the nerve to tell me they'd return it to me repaired after I sent them money ($20 I think?) plus shipping/insurance.

(On top if that, they completely removed an internal diode I'd disabled in order to have side-tone in my headsets. I had merely clipped one side of the diode's lead to enable side-tone, and intended to later install a miniature toggle-switch to make the feature selectable. They took it upon themselves to permanently alter my intercom by removing that diode without my permission.)

Otherwise it's a good product.