Flying with the doors off

[fishdoc]

My recently purchased 170A came with, among several other great extras, the STC to fly with the doors removed
The paperwork says "for the purpose of photography or skydiving" and has some operational limitations on bank angle and airspeed.
It lived in Alaska for several years, has ski fittings and 180 gear legs. There are other reasons I can think of for flying in Alaska with the doors off but we won't go into that here....
My question: Does anyone have experience with this particular flight configuration?
The paper work may say only one door at a time - I don't have it in front of me.
My concern is; things to be aware of or avoid while enjoying a summer evening with the warm breezes blowing through the cabin.

[Jr.CubBuilder]

That's cool that you have an STC for flying door (s)? off, I'd like to hear what it says about operating limitations.

There is an FAA advisory circular (AC No: 105-2c) though that already approves the 170 series for operation with one door removed. It's in appendix 2 at the end of the AC that lists approved aircraft. The C120 through the 172 are legal without an STC from there on up the Cessna food chain they need STCs except for the 207 and 208. The Beech's and Pipers have procedures in either the POH or a supplement, but there aren't any procedures published for our planes.

I met a fellow who loved to fly his around without the door over on your side of the mountains, but I haven't tried it yet myself mostly because I have nowhere to put the door while I'm gone except in the back of the truck, and also because there are a lot of yellow-jackets at the tiedowns during those nice baking hot summer days.

[pdb]

The document to check is AC 105-2C titled Sport Parachute Jumping dtd 1/2/91 which discusses the procedures and hoops for flight with a door removed. In our case, the Cessna 170 series is listed in appendix 2 as being approved for flight with one door off with no modifications nor limits. Much of the AC relates to the problems peculiar parachute jumping (changes in CG as jumpers exit, etc) and would not pertain to simple flight with the door off.

If you aim to go aerial wolf hunting, I highly recommend, and common sense would dictate, that your passenger not blow off the prop, gear, struts, or tail surfaces with errant shots.

I had my pax door off a few years ago for some air to air photography. There was no noticeable change in flight characteristics whatsoever and the front half of the cabin wasn't even that breezy. We had absolutely everything secured in or removed from the cockpit that might get blown about and had no problems whatsoever. The photographer shot from the right front, had seat and shoulder harness on at all times, and had absolutely great visibility.

[blueldr]

Don'r lean out too far with your seat belt disconnected!

[fishdoc]

Don'r lean out too far with your seat belt disconnected!

I'm thinking I'll get the shoulder harnesses installed first

[n8340a]

If your just looking to cool things down, you might want to try flying with the window open. This is a trick I learned when I had my 120. I installed a removeable pin where the window joins the latch. When removed, the window will simply rise to the top of the wing and stay there at flying speeds. On the rollout it will simply fall shut. One tip, raise the window on the ground and tape or otherwise attach a piece of foam to the part of the window that may touch the lower wing. This doesn't happen on my 170 but it did on the 120. This is also a very helpful modification for bombing missions such as the annual pumpkin bombing event I enjoy each year with my kids/bombadiers!

Bill

[bentley]

I flew a 1959 C172 sans right door for years hauling skydivers. Other than real cold in winter it was no biggy at all. Occasionally at decent speed the headliner would sort of pump/buffet/flex in and out and of course anything loose would be either blown out or more likely blown around to catch under the left seat (the only seat in the plane). I never noticed any exhaust smells and did not have the little wind deflector as is installed on doorless C206s. A better option than removing your door may be to install a skydiving door that opens upward against the wing.

[amacbean]

After reading AC 105-2C it sounds like to me that you still have to have written permission from the FSDO, even though the aircraft is listed in index 2. I'm referring to paragraph 23a which states:

Procedure: Owners or operators of aircraft listed in appendix 2, who are interested in obtaining authorization and operating limitations for these aircraft to be flown with the door open or removed, should forward a written request to the FSDO having jurisdiction over the area in which these operations are to be conducted. The request should contain the following information:

1. Name and address of the registered owner (s) of the aircraft.
2. Make, model, serial, and registration numbers of the aircraft.
3. Place where the aircraft is normally based.
4. Reason the aircraft is to be operated with a door open or removed.


Am I interpreting this correctly? Someone help me out here. I really want to be wrong on this one, the less I have to talk to the FSDO the better.

[pdb]

I think you are interpreting this correctly. When I approached FSDO, at first they wanted me to install a strap across the door to prevent the photographer from falling out of his seatbelt and shoulder harness...... I was of the opinion that since the aircraft approval did not require the installation of any other equipment, such as a wind deflecting door lip, etc.. the FSDO guy was overstepping his authority. Imagine that.

Good luck.

After reading AC 105-2C it sounds like to me that you still have to have written permission from the FSDO, even though the aircraft is listed in index 2. I'm referring to paragraph 23a which states:

Procedure: Owners or operators of aircraft listed in appendix 2, who are interested in obtaining authorization and operating limitations for these aircraft to be flown with the door open or removed, should forward a written request to the FSDO ....<snip>

Am I interpreting this correctly? Someone help me out here. I really want to be wrong on this one, the less I have to talk to the FSDO the better.

[flyguy]

I NEVER GAVE IT THAT MUCH THOUGHT TILL MY PAX FELL OUT!!!!!!!! NAW NOT REALLY.

Jumpers, photogs, fishermen looking to GPS good fishing holes and pine beetle spotters are included in the ones I have taken the "door" off for. Just for the heck of it, I tried one time with both them off and I won't do that again. Strange things happen in that config.

One really funny thing came out of my flying amature photographers. Early one morning a couple of deputies arrived with their boss, the (then) local Sheriff , who had given them the job of being the photographers. A new facility for the SO was under construction and the Sheriff wanted to have some photos and a video of the site from the air. At first I tried to get them what they wanted without taking the door off. My front seat pax, the one with the video camera, had the "leans"! This was his first time in a small plane and he really didn't want t be in it , but he was just following orders. It was a fiasco Every time I banked so they could aim their cameras for the photos, he would "lean" over into my shoulder. After a while they determined they had enough film so we returned to the airport.

The next day, this same deputy called me and asked if there was a way we could do the shoot again with better results. His boss wasn't too happy with what they had. I suggested to him that taking the door off would give him lots better view. He acted like I had offered him a sack full of rattle snakes! His boss asked me if it was a safe way to fly and I assured him it was. The deputy wasn't so sure but, bless his heart, he took it in stride. I took the pax door off, removed the front seat, fixed the seat belt in a way that he and his video camera could be secure and off we went. This trip this time was much more successful and we became good friends and flew many more missions for the Sheriff's Office and the DAs office.

[N4064V]

Fishdoc,
Who owns the STC? It seems that maybe with the STC you would not need FSDO approval? By the way make sure your sectional chart in the plane is an outdated one, they are the first to go!

[GAHorn]

I NEVER GAVE IT THAT MUCH THOUGHT TILL MY PAX FELL OUT!!!!!!!! NAW NOT REALLY.

Jumpers, photogs, fishermen looking to GPS good fishing holes and pine beetle spotters are included in the ones I have taken the "door" off for. Just for the heck of it, I tried one time with both them off and I won't do that again. Strange things happen in that config.

One really funny thing came out of my flying ......Welll... just click on my little home-video of one of my adventures....

Ol' Gar's sky-diving adventure:
http://www.madskies.com/180/love-sky/

[4-Shipp]

I have this paper work in my logs and it actually is not an STC. Mine is a letter on FAA Great Lakes Region letter head and signed by FAA Inspector John O'Rourke, AGL-GADO-5, Cincinati, OH. It is dated 3/27/74 and is specific to my registration number.

The title of the letter is AIRCRAFT OPERATING LIMITATIONS WITH DOOR REMOVED. The text of the letter is paraphrased below:

This aircraft may be flown with not more than one cabin door, removed for the purpose of aerial photography and parachute jumping, provided the aircraft is operated in accordance with the applicable Federal Aviation Regulations and the following limitations:

1. Max speed not to exceed any of the following: the approved maneuvering speed, 70% of max level flight speed, or 70% of max structural cruising speed.

2. No acrobatic maneuvers.

3. Maximum yaw angle 10 degrees, Max bank angle 15 degrees.

4. FAA approved safety belts must be worn by each occupant.

5. all occupants must wear chutes when conducting intentional parachute jumping ops.

6. No smoking.

7. If not parachute jumping, "a suitable guardrail or equivalent safety device must be provided for the doorway."

8. Tie down or stow all loose articles.

9. No baggage.

10. Static lines must be free of controls/control surfaces.

11.VFR only.

12. Remove door clips from underside of wing prior to parachute jumping.

13. Pilot must have a private certificate to fly jumpers.

14. Student pilot can't fly solo with door removed.

15. Can't operate aircraft for purposes other than for which it is certified with door removed.

16. Placard must be installed

17. Copy of these limitations must be carried when the door is off.

18. These operating limits are part of the airworthiness certificate.

Plus to be strictly legal, I would guess a logbook entry and adjusted W & B would be required also. Really just need for the insurance adjuster after the fact...

[fishdoc]

That may actually be what I have also - less some of the detail. I just arrived back in town and will have the paperwork in hand tomorrow.

Thanks for all the input.

And, Dang..........it looks like Ol' Gar's sky-diving adventure ended up being a crappy experience
(great video!)

[GAHorn]

I imagine such a letter would not pass muster these days. It is actually so vague, I believe it is invalid. If it were in my possession, I'd consider returning it to them for cancellation/reissue.

Example:
"Placard must be installed." - What placard? What shall it say?
"all occupants must wear chutes when conducting intentional parachute jumping ops." - This is exactly contrary to parachuting operations.
""a suitable guardrail or equivalent safety device must be provided for the doorway." - This is especially troubling, as it does not provide any guidance for how that alteration should be accomplished, or how it may/may not otherwise affect the aircraft.
"Remove door clips from underside of wing prior to parachute jumping." - While we probably know what is intended, there is no such "door clip" part on a 170. (improper description/terminology for "bracket - door catch")