Talk me out of it PLEASE!

[cessnaford]

ok gents, please tell me not a chance of working so i won't try.

i have a '48 170 in complete "project form". i am on my third mechanic (the first two passed it on after some excuse & several months wasted waiting). my mechanic is worried about a few things. the main one being he wants me to buy brand spankin new struts. (i had my current ones magnafluxed and they checked out good) but i can't find anyone who sells a replacement set.

there is a guy 20 miles down the road who has a 1952 B model fuselauge on gear with doors for sale. i am wondering if it would be better to get that find some wings, struts, etc. and then switch everything over from my '48.

so will the tail feathers, engine mount, seats, windshield, cowling(i know different exhaust exit), yokes, etc. etc. fit on this plane?

let me hear it all and tell me how horrible it will be so i can reach a good safe compromise for the plane i have with my mechanic & just keep working at a snails pace to get it together.
thanks a bunch gents
bill w.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Bill

The horizontal stabilizer and elevator for a B model 170 is completely different than the '48 (and A model). Some of the parts you listed would be the same, others are not. Bottom line, I would not get the B model fuselage project and make your problems grow. It would seem you problem is getting the project moving, not the project. What do you think would make a B model project faster or easier?

I've got to ask. Is your mechanic a Piper guy? Pipers have strut issues and it is common to replace them with new. That is why there are new struts available for them. There is a market. I've not heard the Cessna struts have the same issues as the Pipers and would doubt they do as the struts are not made the same. This is not to say you shouldn't check your Cessna struts. It sounds like you've already done that. If this mechanic is a Piper guy he may not be the one for the project either.

[cessnaford]

to start with the mechanic has a super cub and he build it from the ground up ten years ago. i had the thought of a later model 170 because the mechanic loves to annual typical (nose wheel) cessnas and doesn't know much about what i have. i was told by the gentleman who magnafluxed my struts that he could not find an AD for them and he said he would feel safe with them. the issue for my mechanic is you can hear "some things" rolling around in them. i think it could be flux of slag from the welding, or it could be rust. it doesn't sound like dirt or sand, it sounds like small pebbles.
but long story short that was all i needed to hear. i will stick with the project i have and not worry about the other one. as for switching mechanics, well i am on my third (the first only did the engine in a year & the second decided he hated fabric. so i might have to find a non local guy who is actually willing to work on and not just annual a plane.

thanks so much
bill w.
p.s. can you drill a witness hole in the struts to actually get a bore scope in them and then weld it back up?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Bill,

I suspected the mechanic was a Piper guy. Original struts from Pipers where open from the top. They filled with water, rusted at the bottom inside and are subject to an AD of both the strut and the fork. All the strut Pipers had the same basic strut structure and so are all under the ADs. That is why there are 3 parts manufacturers making them.

There is no AD on the Cessna struts. You've had them checked, porbably more that I would have. I would not worry about something rattleing around inside. It wouldn't take much more that a small pebble of material to do this.

Do not drill a hole in the struts. I'm afraid THAT would make them unairworthy unless of course you can find an approved method to drill them. Doubt you will.

I understand the problem with finding someone to assist in a restoration. There just are not enough good people doing this and when you find one you may what years in line with other customers till your aircraft is even started. A friend just got his Cub restoration done after waiting 3 years for the start with no guarantee it would ever start. Took a year once the work started and his may be the last the mechanic does because the guy who owned the shop, not the mechanic, sold out.

Problem here I'm sure is cash flow. I don't know but I'd guess your restoration alone won't pay the bills for your mechanic. So he has to (and wants to) turn easier annual inspections and simple repairs around to pay the bills and your work gets done when he's slow. After all your work isn't going anywhere and the work coming in the door needs to get done now or it will go some where else.

[GAHorn]

If you have a "project" underway, and the repairman/mechanic/inspector you have hired to perform the work is an individual (not a CRS or shop with other qualified/certificated workers), then be certain to insist that as each item is restored, that the work be documented, and signed off in the work order, for inclusion in the aircraft records.
Example: your struts are deemed airworthy by your inspector. Have the status and tests which support the status documented. If the repairman leaves the workplace, dies, or simply retires... all the undocumented work will be for naught. You will be back at your starting place.
Individual Form 337's signed and submitted for each subassembly might be one way to accomplish the task. Also, make a copy of the 337, roll it up in a zip-lock bag, and tape it to the subassembly to which it applies, or otherwise identify the associated subassembly.

[wingnut]

George gives good advise. Have the mechanic document each task as it is accomplished in his work order, AND also preferrably on an in process log book entry, in detail with references and subtantiating data. 2 reasons; (1) it's easier for the mechanic, at the end of the project to wrap up the paper trail effeciently and accurately, and (2) as George stated, if for whatever reason, the project is stalled or you have to change mechanics in midstream you will have important and necessary documentation so the project can proceed without bumps. This in process log entry does not need to be in the log book, and should not be until the end, but should be in a format with a signature that can be transcribed onto a sticky or written into the log in format that flows well later. Remember, as an owner, YOU are primarily responsible for the maintenance records, so you are charged with insuring your mechanic accomplish this to YOUR standard. You are paying him for this service.
Separate 337 forms are a good idea. For instance, if major repairs are completed to each wing, fuselage, tail feathers, etc. and 10 years later the aircraft is damaged, total loss, you will have some assemblies that may have no damage, and a single form 337 for that unit to offer with for sale. Sadly, some of these aircraft are worth more ($$) in pieces than flying. So, the more detailed and separate records you keep for each assembly/component, the more value the overall damaged aircraft will have, whether to you or a salvage buyer.
Don't burden yourself with another project, trying to make one out of two. I've done this a few times and it is a very unusual circumtance that it will be advantageous, both in time and money.
The biggest issue you have as an owner is finding that mechanic that enjoys, has the experience, motivation and passion to see old airplanes fly again. Good luck to you.

[cessnaford]

thanks guys i will take all this good advice to heart. i am pretty new to a lot of this. i will remain persistant and eventually get it done.

one more quick question. is there a wiring harness that one can get for a 170 to replace the old wiring or is it best to just get the appropriate spools of wire and replace each wire as you go?

thanks again
bill w.

[GAHorn]

While automotive wiring harnesses are available from aftermarket suppliers... no such thing exists in the aeronautical market, to my knowlege. Complete re-wiring can be accomplished by individual set-up on a harness-board in the hangar. (Yes, it's time consuming. And expensive. And very worthwhile and satisfying.)
The entire description of each circuit, length, and identification is found in the IPC and the TIC170A Electrical Systems Service Manual (available from headquarters@cessna170.org )

[johneeb]

Kroy printer 3100_big.jpg (9.89 KiB) Viewed 5332 times

Bill, when I rewired my airplane I used the parts manual discription, as George suggests, and a Kroy printer to make shrink tube labels for each lead. Looks neat and eliminates a lot of detective work when one end is through the fire wall and the other behind the insturment panel.
http://www.kroy.com/industrial/3000spec.asp

[cessnaford]

wow the label maker looks like the best thing ever. thanks for the info. it will help out a lot. i am really scared of my "vintage wiring" because i also have a 1946 ford with the same type of wiring that had a short and a small fire under the hood because the cloth insulation wore off.

thanks again so very much.

bill w.