Mogas and a "no fly" winter

[Robert Eilers]

About eight years ago my friends and I landed in Valley City South Dakota on the way home from OSH. I was flying my Champ back then and I had three J-3's, an RV-6, and a vintage helicopter flying with me. We were low over the fields coming out of Minnesota when we inadvertantly wound up buzzing a farmer on his tractor. After we landed at Valley City the farmer drove up and introduced himself to us. He was just interested in the airplanes and we talked about airplanes and the trip with him for some time. He was one of the biggest men I have ever met. I believe his hand was as big as my head. He explained to us, when we asked about Valley City South Dakota, that the population of the county had shrunk almost 2,000 over the past ten years. Children were leaving for better jobs somewhere else and the old family farms were drying up as a result. I often think of that old farmer and hope things have turned around for him and for Valley city South Dakota.

[GAHorn]

When small farming communities allow WalMart, Tractor Supply, and other large, national chains establish businesses in the community it KILLS local, family-operated businesses. The little town square and businesses die, and there are no more jobs for the local kids to grow into.

Then, to complete the process, WalMart will decide that the town is too small already, and shrinking due to the kids moving out, and will close the store and leave a vacant bldg and lot as an eyesore and attraction to vagrants and vandals.

A Civil War battle site where ancestors struggled and died, and the associated breastworks and fort was completely bulldozed-over by WalMart. That entire landscape and it's history is now forgotten, occupied by a vacant WalMart and parking lot.

[ginbug92b]

another hijacked thread, would Homeland Security consider this a terrorist act?

[GAHorn]

NOT hijacked.

The WalMart discussed is no longer selling mogas.

[Brad Brady]

NOT hijacked.

The WalMart discussed is no longer selling mogas.

Or any thing....Brad

[james_layman]

...and yet another fuel question.

A friend at 55J in NE Florida has to defuel his Baron and has almost 100 gals of 100LL available. The fuel has been on board almost 14 months following a ground engine fire.

The Baron has remained in his hangar. Assuming we first sump his tanks and filter the fuel as it is moved to 5 gal cans...does anyone see any problem using the "free fuel" in our 170's et al.

Our airport bums are about 50/50 on this. But it really hurts to pay someone to cart it away.

[GAHorn]

Presuming no "additives" have been made to it, and that it was airworthy when loaded into the Baron, ... 14 months should not cause a problem. The refinery at Abilene, when queried by me about storage, required their avgas be "circulated" every three months, otherwise is good for 2 years. Aircraft in storage at Davis-Monathans have flown away on avgas that sat in their tanks many years, according to the docent at Pima.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Assuming no contamination I'd be flying with it.

[flyguy]

Assuming no contamination I'd be flying with it.

Several years ago, in southern California, I found a C175 for sale. It had been sitting for several years - - so long that the flat tires had created shallow indentations in the tarmac. The first cursory inspection, to see if it would be worth a second look, was around 10 PM. I checked the fuel tanks with a dipstick I found in the cabin. The tanks weren't totally empty - maybe about 1/3 full but when I stuck the cup under the sumps and drained some fuel it seemed to be almost purple! I just assumed I would have to flush the whole system and added that to the equation. A week or so later after haggling with the owner I made another trip to the airport for a little further in-depth inspection before finalizing the purchase. I sumped the tanks again in daylight and to my surprise the fuel, although darker than usual, wasn't stale or gummy as I had expected- - it was old 80 octane that had sat in those tanks for 3 or 4 years but still retained some characteristics of fresh fuel. I attributed the darker color to evaporation that may have altered the color additive balance.
I did flush the system but there was no residual of the kind of gunk that is left when the auto fuel, in use now, sits too long.

Bottom line - - Avgas ages way better than any mogas. I wouldn't be afraid to accept the fuel from that Baron. It might not hurt to ask or find a way to determine what if any additives have been introduced. Give it a good visual and a sniff or two to see if it is OK.

BTW ( Blue that means "by the way") Put on new tires, did a really thorough wash job, a fresh oil change and I flew that C175 all the way from California to Louisiana and several hundred hours since then with absolutely no problems....... and enjoyed the heck out of it!

[GAHorn]

Purple was also an approved color for 91/96 octane avgas for several years. It also resulted from the mix of Blue 100/130 with red 80/87. Still later the color was reassigned, but is no longer in use.

[cessna170bdriver]

Purple was also an approved color for 91/96 octane avgas for several years. It also resulted from the mix of Blue 100/130 with red 80/87. Still later the color was reassigned, but is no longer in use.

Actually, 100/130 is (was?) green. It was the 115/145 that was purple. http://www.aviationfuel.org/avgas/grades.asp

91/96 octane was blue, but darker than 100LL as I recall. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3976572.html (search for the word blue to find the appropriate paragraph.)

Miles

[GAHorn]

Thanks, Miles. I cannot get the link to work, but I know the info you posted was correct in the '70's.
The current dyes seen in the U.S. do not reflect the historical use of dyes. Prior to the Korean War era three different dye-schemes were used, depending upon country-of-origin. ICAO rules are now adopted worldwide.

The official ICAO CURRENT chart is:

Country Fuel Dye
Worldwide Aviation gasoline 80/87 red dye
Worldwide Aviation gasoline 82UL purple dye
Worldwide Aviation gasoline 100LL blue dye
Worldwide Aviation gasoline 100/130 green dye

[cessna170bdriver]

I also recall (from my 31+ year old groundschooling) that mixing fuels does not result in the colors you would expect from mixing paint, I remember being taught that the dye chemistry was formulated that way on purpose so there would be no mistaking grades. In other words, mixing red 80 octane with blue 91/96 or 100LL would not be mistaken for purple 115/145.

An excerpt from my second reference above seems to bear this out: "...while fuels are color-coded in accordance with their octane content, should fuels be mixed, as is sometimes the case, the resultant color may approach a neutral value. Thus 80/87 octane has a red dye added thereto, 91/96 octane has a blue dye added thereto, 100/130 octane is green and 115/145 octane is purple. But the mixture of any two of these fuels may result in a much less distinctive color whose value may be difficult to distinguish from dirty water. "

I tend to believe that what Ol Gar had was old 80 octane. The dye in that fuel when it separates out is (was ) a purplish red.

Miles

[blueldr]

Back in the days of "The Greatest Genertion", aviation fuels were:
73 oct. Clear. used in primary trainers such as PT-13, PT-17, PT-18, PT-19, PT-21, PT-22, PT-23, ETC.
80/87 oct. Red. used in basic and advandced trainers such as BT-9, BT-13, BT-15, AT-6, AT-7, AT-9, AT-10. AT-11,AT-17
And many other aircraft useing R-975, R-985, and R-1340 engines and some useing R-680 engines rated at
295 or 300 HP.
91/98 oct. Blue. Used in almost all other large cargo and combat airplanes, such as C-46s and B 17s, in training .
100/130 oct. Green. Used in training on the B-29, and almost all the rest was used in combat and war support.
108/132 oct. Orange. Came out very near the end of WWII and was shortly thereafter discontinued in favor of 115/145 which was S starting to come on line.
115/145 oct. purple. The ulimate heavily leaded avgas which died out with the onset of the gas turbine age. I believe some may s still, be made for the Reno racers.

The octane numbers such as 100/130 mean that the fuel is rated at 100 octane in a lean mixture and 130 octane in a rich mixture.

[GAHorn]

My Dad was in B-24's based out of Attlebridge, East Anglia (about 20m west of Norwich) and just prior to and during the Battle of the Bulge a large portion of his B.G. (466th) were used to haul gasoline to the continent. The bombers were quickly fitted with racks for gas-cans and drums and they made many roundtrips hauling gas and supplies for the push towards Germany. They also made many low-level runs dropping groceries over the countryside (Operation Marketbasket) to the Low Countries to fight starvation because the Germans had taken or destroyed everything as they retreated, leaving the population with nothing to eat. After a couple days of that, they returned to regular bombing missions. The gas they hauled was ALL 91/96 octane, which could be used in virtually everything with wheels, and was the most common fuel he saw. (I'm pretty sure I recall him saying it was red, though. I wonder if they re-dyed it for ground vehicle use?) The B-24-J he flew had a placard on it's side (just beside the fire extinguisher panel) that specified 91/96 as a minimum octane fuel.

I think I had another St. Pauli brain failure earlier when I thought 91/96 was ever purple. Sorry for the misinfo and thanks for straightening it out.