Slip with full flaps in a B model

[timberstone]

Mark Gunnison,
Your video of the landing while slipping was instructional AND enjoyable.
The full circuit was viewed and all the music appreciated.
Thanks, Robert Griffey

[Brad Brady]

Now again i'm still learning so don't pick on me too bad.
Scott.....53B

If your wheel landing shorter than you can three point you need practice. (was that too bad?)

Boy is Bruce right!

[dmacdw]

Bruce and Brad,

Sparkey Imeson, in his Mountain Flying Bible, notes that wheelie landings allow for more effective braking. His book suggests that maximum effective braking when on the main gear then allows a shorter landing distance.

Dan

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Dan I wouldn't disagree if maximum braking and having the most weight on the wheels was the only factor. As discussed on other threads wheel landing generally takes a higher landing speed in a 170. So the maximun braking would have to overcome the disadvantage of that higher speed. In some cases, for those not at the top of their landing game, that can be 20 mph (70 vs 50).

OK I'd like to see a pole how many people apply ANY breaking while up on the mains?

While I have applied brakes in an effort to stop short and am not afraid to do so, I have applied a lot of brake and I can not apply maximum breaking (the same as I can at a three point) while balancing the plane on the mains and not allowing it to nose over.

There are airplanes with setups that allow easier braking control and more elevator control and then the rules might change for those that can take advantage of that. Realistically for 99% of the pilots under 99% of the conditions in a 170, a three point can be done shorter than a wheel landing.

[GAHorn]

Bruce and Brad,

Sparkey Imeson, in his Mountain Flying Bible, notes that wheelie landings allow for more effective braking. His book suggests that maximum effective braking when on the main gear then allows a shorter landing distance.

Dan

There is a need to define what we are discussing. Here are my definitions:
Landing DISTANCE includes the distance from the point directly over a 50' obstacle, thru the round-out, flare, and touchdown roll until the aircraft comes to a complete stop.

Landing ROLL is only that portion of the landing after actual touchdown until the aircraft comes to a complete stop.

(These definitions are similar to takeoff definitions of DISTANCE and RUN for any aircraft.)

Sparky was obviously speaking only as regards a shorter Landing ROLL ...as opposed to total distance. (And if he didn't intend that, then it's yet another area in which I consider his teachings less than completely useful.)

...OK I'd like to see a pole how many people apply ANY breaking while up on the mains?....

I do this regularly, and have even carried the braking thru the initial stages of runway-turnoff if asked to "expedite".

[blueldr]

I regularly apply maximum braking while holding the airplane up on the mains until the air speed will no longer support the weight of the tail with full down elevator.
This was also the procedure taught for minimum roll out in the C-47 (DC3) in the USAAF in WWII.
The procedure being to land with the tail down at the slowest air apeed and then use forward "stick" to put weight on the mains for maximum braking.

[Roesbery]

My experience with the '52' 170B is that it will land shorter light, than the later models with equal passenger load. Used to really get a kick out of having a proffessional pilot as passenger and on short final start pulling back on the yolk and flap handle at the same time and touching down just as the flap and yolk reached full aft position. Settle down like a duck with 50 to 100 feet roll no brakes. Never have been able to do that with the later models. I think that '52' had a considerable lighter emty weight. Maybe just that plane, don't know.

[Brad Brady]

Bruce and Brad,

Sparkey Imeson, in his Mountain Flying Bible, notes that wheelie landings allow for more effective braking. His book suggests that maximum effective braking when on the main gear then allows a shorter landing distance.

Dan

Dan,
I want to say something about landing in a wheel configuration and adding brakes, but it is just to humiliating. It cost me 20,000 dollars of income. and the owner of the aircraft, another 40,000.....Brad

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Ok so far George, BL and I will use breaks while up on the mains. I'm sure there are more but it's been my experience we will be in the minority specially when your talking maximum breaking effort which is not for the faint of heart.

Heck my instructor wouldn't use brakes and instructed me not to do so when I was flying my Cherokee. He said using the brakes would wear them out.

BL can you three point a DC3? Haven't seen many land but don't recall any 3 pointing. So I'm thinking a wheel landing was the preferred (or only) method and so it would make sense braking was used while on the mains.

[KS170A]

OK I'd like to see a pole how many people apply ANY breaking while up on the mains?

I almost always do wheel landings, and I will usually use brakes while on the mains only, keeping the tail up as long as possible.

[170C]

Guess the braking discussion is a bit off the slipping w/ full flap issue, but whatever I can, and do, occasionally make wheel landings in my plane. Can't say that I particularily "like" them, but I can do them. I rarely ever use brakes in a wheel landing as I am usually not needing or wanting to make a short field landing if making a wheel landing. I always have a bit of concern about the possiblity of having the experience Brad mentioned if using heavy braking and wheel landing combo's. Maybe I just need more practice I am one of those who almost never uses a wheel landing in a strong crosswind condition. Many of you have shared your experiences that you feel it is a better option under those conditions. ME--I want to get my plane as slow as possible, while remaining safe, prior to touch down so I have the shortest possible distance to travel/roll out, before being able to stop with that dasterdly cross wind trying to swing me crossways on the runway.

[GAHorn]

To each pilot belongs his own choice of technique, however this is my thoughts on wheel landings in strong crosswinds:

1-When does a rudder have more authority? At higher speed and while up in the relative wind? Or when slow, and at/below stall in the three-point attitude with the fuselage blanking it?

2-When does an airplane offer more resistance to lateral diversion (turning, as in a ground-loop)? When both wheels/tires have strong friction applied against rolling? (during heavy braking) Or when they have no brakes applied? (or if applied, have less weight upon them.)

3-With an aircraft landing in gusty crosswinds, which scenario exposes the moving-aircraft at lower flight-control-effectiveness speeds for longer periods of time? (such as during flare and float immediately prior to touchdown?)

A wheel landing allows an aircraft, still enjoying effective flight controls, to touch down and maintain lateral control until braking can be applied (which stabilises the lateral control) to quickly bring the aircraft to a slow, non-flying-speed, safely.

Fears of nosing-over while applying brakes are alleviated by the still-effective elevator which can be held up with aft-yoke during the braking action...and which pre-positions the elevator/yoke in the correct position for taxying.

Those are my points in favor of wheel landings during crosswinds. Each pilot must decide for himself based upon their own evaluation of their own capabilities and preferences.

[Watkinsnv]

I make almost all my landings wheel landings with full flaps even in croswinds I add brakes while still on the mains. You can ease off of the brakes or use more elevator to adjust tail height. I find the plane settles down quicker and you have more directional control sooner with braking. But then I sometimes use some braking on take off for some directional control.

[hilltop170]

Considering everything said above, my initial flight instructor had a way of simplifying things that has always worked whenever a question about "how much?" has come up. His re-occuring answer was always, "Just enough and not too much".

I always wheel land, use full flaps for every landing, and whatever brake is needed for the situation.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Richard along those lines I like to say "do what you gotta do". If you need brakes use them. If you need to land no flaps or full flaps, do it. Full throttle, half throttle, no throttle, what ever it takes. Close your eyes if that works for you.

When teaching my daughter how to drive, she failed to negotiate a curve because she would have had to turn the wheel to much. I've seen and riden with pilots who fly the same way. Their instructor said to do it this way and that is EXACTLY how they do it all the way to the point of impact.