water crossing

[n3437d]

the intelligent part of me wants to refrain from asking this question and the dumb insists pon it.

I will be heading east from Nevada sometime this summer and plan on heading up toward the Great Lakes, rahter than flying down south and coming close to the Chicago area, I have been pondering crossing Lake Michigan near Oshkosh, (about 60 mi). Have any of you made this crossing?

Joel
N3437D

[voorheesh]

Thats not a dumb question at all. I have crossed Lake Michigan in a twin engine airplane and I once flew across Lake Superior from Sault Ste Marie to Thunder Bay Ontario in a Twin Otter a long time ago (IFR). Even in the twins, we carried life jackets and survival gear. I would certainly do that in a single. The FAA has a Hazardous Area Reporting Service (AIM 4-1-21) that has Lake Reporting Service for aircraft traversing Lake Michigan. You might want to check that out. There is risk involved but it is probably not that big a deal. By the way, an old timer once told me that when you get out of sight of land, the magnetic field of open water causes changes in the sound of the engine in single .

[GAHorn]

My "old timer/advisor" always said, "Remember that every minute outbound from shore is equal to a day's-swim back."

Think about how you will exit from your airplane, shocked, dazed, hypo-thermic, and upside-down underwater, and how to find your door-latches and how they will seem to operate backwards while upside down. Get your occupants out first because it's very difficult to go diving for them, especially after you've been in 50-degree (or colder) lake-water a few seconds.

A couple hours circumnavigating the lake may last a lifetime. (But I'd probably want to cross it too.)

[SteveF]

These are strictly my thoughts on Lake Michigan:

I fly over western Massachusetts, Maine, and Pennsylvania and they are covered with endless woods.

I have not been there but looking down from the airlines over much of the west there is a lot of inhospitable desert, mountains, and generally bad terrain out there.

Water is probably worse to land on than the above but I bet not a lot worse.

I have been to Oshkosh a number of times and usually we go out the southern route below Lake Michigan and up the lake in front of Chicago, which is a lot of fun, and as much over water as across the lake would be. The difference is the shore is close by so if you ditch you will be seen by someone. You can also contact Chicago approach and get flight following under the Class B therefore being in communication with someone while going over the water.

Coming home we are interested in making better time so we cross Lake Michigan enroute to Port Huron where we get fuel before crossing Canada to Buffalo and on to Massachusetts. We cross the lake between Manitowoc (MTW) and Mason Co (LDM) as it is north of the restricted area and one of the shorter distances across. FYI we do wear life jackets when we cross and we do use the lake reporting service which is outlined in the AIM. The distance across is less then the FAA minimum for distance / time from shore for over water flight requiring over water gear to be carried.

Now the other side of the coin:

At the Dearborn convention I talked to a couple of members who came from Wisconsin and Minnesota and both had come around the lake. They said they never go over the lake as it is to dangerous and they have to contend with it all the time. Also another member I have a lot of respect for will not fly over any water that he can not glide to the other side of though he will routinely fly around at minimum legal altitudes.

[canav8]

If you do attempt to cross over the lake, please be familiar with the shipping lanes. That is where the boats are when they have to answer a call for rescue. Best of luck. Doug

[n3437d]

Thanks, great responses, all -Interesting comment about western flying and something that I do think about but not frequently. I routinely fly west SW out of Carson City (KCXP) and fly near or through 14,000' peaks called the Desolation Wilderness, looking down there are zero landing spots but it never has bothered me. With all the years I have had soaring above these mountains without an engine, I was pretty much always within gliding distance of an "out." Its strange how the thought of landing in water disturbs me more.

Joel
N3437D

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Joel landing in water should bother you more. It is just as hard as land but after impact when the motion stops you may not be able to breath because your under water. And then your cold and it just gets worse. When was the last time you treaded water in the deep end of a pool for a few minutes. Imagine doing that for a few hours or days while your injured. That's right you won't last that long in the cold water. I'm not saying I wouldn't choose a water landing over dry land, like the miracle on the Hudson some times that is the better choice and that was my planned course of action when I absolutely had no other option.

Sure landing in trees in the out back of MA, CT, PA and just about every other area I've flown would be no picnic. And survival might be hard enough without having to hold my breath and swim while I do it. Flying single engine aircraft over that much water is just no fun for me and I simply won't do it.

But if your are going to do it you have been given excellent advice how to prepare.

[3958v]

Joel I have done the exact flight you describe crossing just North of OSH on one of my trips back to PA from WY. The weather kept me North because of IFR conditions in the Chicago area preventing me from going my normal route. I decided to go to 12,000 ft so as to be vulnerable for as short a time as possible. I did use the lake reporting flight plan where you contact them every 10 minuets and if they don't hear from you they call you and dispatch search and rescue if you don't respond. They actually called me in about 9 minutes so they take it seriously. The day I crossed visibility was about 6 miles and in the middle of the lake I had my head down checking were I planed to go after crossing the lake and I heard the engine picking up speed. A quick look out side the plane and I realized that it would be impossible to level the wings visually. I still remember thinking "this is what kills people" and then forcing myself to think about leveling the wings with the attitude indicator and the turn coordinator. I decided that studying the chart could wait until I reached the other side of the lake. I generally will fly around or along the edge of a large body of water if that option presents itself. Bill k

[SteveF]

Joel,
I did forget about the visibility over the lake. We usually cross at 9500 and can see one shore or the other for about two thirds of the trip. Have seen the opposite shore within a short time on a real clear day but Bill k is absolutely correct - you will be on instruments for about half the time while you are crossing. You usually can see the water below but you need to be at home on the gages. Also want to be real sure of the weather on the other side as sometimes there is a lower deck there and you could get trapped on top.

[loomis]

Hello i loaned a flight instructor friend of mine my 170a he flew to oshkosh and back over the lake. I was doing some takeoffs and landings with a friend for about 2 hours and the #1 cylinder came off the engine. got landed in ultra lite strip / horse pasture no one hurt airplane fine also. he must have had someone looking out for him. Rob Loomis kalamazoo mi

[akviperdriver]

I have crossed the North Atlantic twice in a single engine airplane. The Pacific (Okinawa-Guam-Hawaii-Alaska) twice; the North Pacific (Fairbanks, AK-South Korea) four times. I realize they are different bodies of water, and in a different class of airplane (F-16), however, strange things start to be noticed from the engine once you are out of gliding distance from land. I could only rationalize doing what I did knowing I had the entire DOD on my side, and I had the best equipment possible for survival if the unthinkable happened. Even then, it wasn't ever comfortable until within gliding distance of land.

I keep our 170 in the best shape possible. I fly over remote Alaska wilderness regularly. But I still won't take it over water, outside gliding distance to land.

A two hour plus hour detour is only more flight experience in which to learn something new. Why rob yourself of that and unnecessarily risk you and your aircraft?

Other folks have said it better than I can... a forced landing on land is entirely different than one IN water. That being said, be familiar with shipping lanes, know your emergency proceedures cold, make sure your passengers know how to egress, and be on the lookout for boats to ditch close to...

My two cents...

Chris

[blueldr]

All reciprocaring aircraft engines were designed to go into automatic rough within three minutes of out of sight of land. It doesn't matter how many cylinders the engine has, they all are programmed the same by the manufacturers.
Sixty miles across one of the great lakes is for pussy cats.
Jerrie Mock, in her solo trip around the world in 1964 in her C-180, departed Honolulu at sundown for a 2400 mile night flight across the eastern Pacific Ocean to Oakland, California.
For goodness sake, don't let a petite, 38 year old lady, mother of three, out "guts" you.

[pdb]

For goodness sake, don't let a petite, 38 year old lady, mother of three, out "guts" you.

Joel:

Years ago when I was learning to fly gliders, we left AirSailing (n of Reno), climbed to 12k or so on Tule Peak and headed out across Pyramid Lake. We needed to cross the lake and the ridge on the other side so that if we couldn't find lift, we could land on Winnemucca Dry lake. It was surreal. I was flying across this lake with 4 other gliders, smooth, calm air, plenty of altitude, the altimeter unwinding at the expected rate, and normal wind noise so I could pretend I was in some sort of biz jet cruising the flight levels.

But the whole time, I kept thinking how stupid I was going to feel explaining to my family how I managed to ditch a glider or drown flying cross the desert in Nevada. No matter how many times I calculated the glide it was fine, plenty of margin, just bloody unnatural.

I am reminded of a talk by Tom Knauff, holder of many glider records. He asked the crowd of glider pilots why we do some of the dumb stuff we do, taking unnecessary risks. Flying in general is risky, lets face it. Are we protecting the nation? No. Are we bombing Berlin hoping to end the war earlier? No. We are flying gliders for fun. Great fun but only fun. Pursuit of happiness fun. Just like flying our 170s.

How would your ghost explain to your wife or kids that you killed yourself to save a 2 hour detour? Just not necessary IMHO.

Just remember that Murphy's Law is wrong. Most of the time we can we can do stupid stuff and get away with it. Don't draw the wrong conclusion that it wasn't stupid.

And especially don't do it to prove you have more guts than some women. That's really dumb. Some women have a lot of guts.

[sfarringer]

I have crossed Lake Michigan a few times, but usually I go past Chicago. Flying the shore line by Chicago under the Class B is a nice flight, if you happen to have a good visibility day. Of course, my blood pressure always goes up when I pass by where Meigs Field used to be. By the way, Lansing Illinois is a good place to stop for lunch, Irish pub restaurant right on the field.

I have flown over water a number of hours in my 170. Some wonderful trips come to mind: San Juan Islands, Bahamas, Turks & Caicos, Newfoundland ... I am very glad I made these trips, and you can't get there without flying over water.

The risk of ditching in water is generally low. However, the consequences can be high. And the colder the water, the higher the consequences. Lake Michigan is always cold.

We all make choices of how to live our lives, and which risks to accept.

[n3437d]

Wow,

What started out being what I thought would be a dumb question turned into a great discussion. I learned a heck of a lot, specially when I dusted off my AIM and looked at the Dangerous Water crossing instructions. I never knew that was there. OK I confess I have never read the AIM from Front to back and probably never will. After reading all the posts, I have made the decision NOT to cross lake Michigan even though I am sure all would go just fine. I was really trying to avoid the Chicago area on my way to Corning/Elmira where I learned to fly 40 years ago. I learned how to fly glider at about the same time from the Schweizer family.
I attempted competition glider flying for several years and did stuff no sane person would ever do on their own. Example: launching 30+ sailplanes over the start gate all circling in the same house thermal waiting for the start gate to open in barely legal visibility. Every once in a while you would see a wing tip off your left or right. I have flown at Airsailing but most of my recent glider flying was at Minden. Once while flying a Regional contest at MASA (Mid Atlantic Soaring Assoc) I had to thermal over Camp David to make a save and eventually flew the course backwards because I could see in that direction, eventually wound up landing in a soccer filed at Mt St. Mary's College in MD. After most of these flight I would ask myself. "Would I have flown today if it wasn't a contest?" The answer was always "NO". After seeing two friends get killed after midairs I decided I did not like contest flying anymore. Crazy what humans do!

I never thought about going under the Class B at Chicago.

Again, let me say I greatly appreciated all of you great responses. I learned a lot.

Joel
N3437D
Carson City, NV
Come on out and gamble - we need the $$$$$